3D Animation and Design Chat

Hey everyone! A fellow member just brought up the idea of a post regarding animation and graphics from one who has had some hands on experience with it. As some of you know I love doing this 3D stuff and this summer has been a great outlet for some practice. I'm by NO means a master or Maya techy by any means, but I guess I might have a valid input on whatever graphics/animation based questions or concerns you might have. Oh, and Paragon is also quite good at this stuff, so Paragon, if you're reading this, please feel free to join on in and throw everything you got into it.

I'm gonna start off by answering a question that Joneagle X asked about depth shadows versus raytracing. Depth shadows is a sort of rough/draft version of raytracing. I'm not too sure how it actually works, but I just know that subsequent to me clicking that render button, if my stuff is set on depth shadows the render takes about 1/50 the time it would take for a raytrace depending on complexity of the scene. Although, there IS a chance that raytracing might perform faster on certain game engines/hardware when u'r talking about a game? You said something about how raytracing is just about what is visible 'n what not, but I personally have no idea how that really works. I would only think that raytrace = sharper, crispier results, and it makes sh*t look amazingly real.

Again, Paragon, or anybody who might be secretly pro's out there, please chip in to compensate for my n00bness at this depth/raytrace thing, lol.

Okay, but yea, this post is purely for all questions and ideas regarding cinematics, game graphics, and animation and what not from a more production kind of view. So inquire away and I'll be happy to provide what I can!

 

what are the steps, say, in making a face...i probably have a vague idea but don't know the terminology.

I envision like drawing the model using wireframes and stuff, then applying textures to the surface of the model, then (i think you explained this a while ago) defining what parts move alone/together and linking stuff like the teeth (if they are visible) to the jaw if the unit is talking, then from what I understand, rendering (which I'm guessing is basically like animating what you have modeled, applied textures to, linked, and told how to move). Is rendering different from animation?

 

Okay, making a face. Oh lord, well u'r basically tackling one of the hardest things to do in Maya. I'm actually gonna copy 'n paste a thing I typed to a friend that talks about it to save my fingers from breaking.

Here it is:

The head/face alone took me about 5 days. The body was relatively faster at about 2 days. I figured you might like this in regards to u'r inquiry about modeling people. Simply put: ITS HARD. Probably the single toughest thing in 3D is the modeling of human/organic objects. I might advise you to start off with simpler things like robots 'n what not so that you get the hang of it. Basically, thinking in 3D, dragging vertices, and edges 'n what not should become second nature to you before you start tackling human heads. Basically, you need to feel like u'r practically drawing with polygons. It... takes a while, heh. I'm not trying to intimidate you, I'm actually hoping that it'll relieve u'r frustration a lil to know that it's not an easy thing to do for anyone. My method for doing the head was to literally start off with a single polygon plane and start extruding edges one by one, and matching each polygon position with a part of the eye (which is where I started off). And this polygon is seriously the size of like, 1/30th of the eye's length and height. So it's almost like u'r drawing with pixels. Before doing this, set up two views of the head u'r trying to model. A front and a side. To do this, just create two planes perpendicular to one another and make their "material color" the image of the files. Let me know if you need help with this and i'll guide you further. Once you have that set up, just start going at it. Polygon by polygon. The GOOD news is, that all you need to do is HALF A FACE! Haha, that's the sweet part about all of this is cuz you can just mirror the image and wah-lah, u have u'r face. Plus it won't be all distorted 'n stuff.

*End of message*

Does that help at all, Nikzad?

Okay, now on rigging, which is different from modeling the face. In order to get the right parts to move, like the lips 'n what not, you have to rig it right, which I actually have no experience with. It's one of the last thing I need to get down prior to the school year. But basically you create wire deformers and assign certain parts of the face to be affected by that curve or deformer you created. I don't know too much bout it so I can't say much.

Rendering is essentially just taking raw ugly looking models and keyframes that can be processed by u'r hardware while working and turning each "frame" into a gorgeous looking finished product by applying all the shadows and textures accurately. So in the scene u'r never gonna see an actual shadow being casted. U'r just gonna see some basic light and color effects. But it's bascically pretty ugly and completely devoid of any resemblance to "realism" aside from perspective and scale. I'll attach an example of the differences. Also attached are examples of raytrace versus depth shadows.

Raw Maya models in work window:

[img width=610 height=194]http://tinyurl.com/2wkqfn[/img]

Rendered version:
[img width=350 height=100]http://tinyurl.com/3bqx2c[/img]

Depth shadows:
[img width=400 height=300]http://tinyurl.com/2tskfo[/img]

Sexy raytrace shadows:

[img width=400 height=300]http://tinyurl.com/3y9gst[/img]

 

Okay so I kinda need to bump this cuz some ppl who asked for this post didn't see it the first time...

Sorry, I don't do this often... errr yea....

 

WOW! Awesome ArchLimit... thanks... I owe you another plus for this post!!!

So assembling something is pretty much being an artist with blocks?

So let's say you've created your Marine by building him out of polygons. I'm assuming you can just create a 3D space and start building like you would with legos... this size piece goes here, this size piece goes here (correct me if I'm wrong).

Question 1: So you've got the general (he's all flat-sided) shape of a Marine... how do you finish him off to look like he does in your signature with all the smooth features? Is that just where you run your rendering?

Question 2: Then, when you've got him all prettied up, how do you make him do a simple movement, like moving an arm? Do you create each movement and then put the frames together like you would a gif image or like claymation?

Question 3: I've noticed none of your avatars speak, move lips, etc.... is this a result of your not knowing it? (Not being a douche, just asking)

Lastly, regarding raytracing, I'm going to read up a little it. Because I do think you're right.

From seeing your descriptions of raytracing and the pictures your showed, I see how much of a difference it can make. It yields a higher-quality picture.

I'll make my initial assumption and tomorrow I will go look to see how right I am . I'm assuming that raytracing is a completely different engine than depth shadows. So what I'm thinking is that an engine that runs depth shadows simply cannot generate the quality image that raytracing can, but when you have a system that CAN create that image, then you can use raytracing to reveal ONLY the visible portion of the image, thereby cutting that 50x longer load time because you're only raytracing the visible elements instead of the entire 3D image.

Question 4: I'm going to download Maya and try my luck. But here's a question on the usage of it. Are you basically hitting "new document" and a 3D space appears? So you're working in this 3D space and you can pretty much design all three at once or separately, put them in the same space, somehow add the animations, and you've got your final product once you render?

I'm a TOTAL n00b at this, sorry if I'm overinquisitive or something.

 

Hey man, great questions. Let's see if I can tackle 'em.

#1: Yes, to make him go from raw blocks 'n polygons and what not, all it really requires is the rendering setting and you click render and off the program goes to make him beautiful. Now, this is simply a "step." It's like throwing raw food into the frying pan. I mean, you DO need to cook it and it will taste good, but the major part of what'll make it great is the seasoning 'n sauces, lol. So what I mean by that is that you need to learn how to texture correctly. That is, finding the right material for the selected polygon or shape, and adjusting the specular highlights, the color, and very importantly, the "bump map" which is what Maya calls it. Bump maps are your best friends in texturing cuz they can make stuff look so real but still not eat up ur rendering time. I'll give you more info on this after u've played with some basic modeling a little. It's not important right away.

#2: Animation actually kinda came pretty naturally to me. It's basically what you want some thing to look like at a certain given point in time. I think animation in Maya is pretty easy to use/understand. All you gotta do is select the thing ur working with, find u'r very first frame, or the "beginning" part of the segment, and keyframe that, find the place you want that thing to be next, and keyframe that. So all ur' doing is establishing time and space of u'r objects. So if you want the ball to bounce across the floor. You'd select the ball, go the frame one, keyframe it up in the air at the starting point, go over a few frames, say 10 frames? and drag the ball to the floor where it hits, and keyframe that. Then you can hit play and maya calculates all the frames in between and u'r ball will move from point A to Point B smoothly. No, you do NOT have to keyframe every frame like a .gif. Thank GOD, lol.

#3: No, it's because the Protoss don't speak, the Zerg don't speak, and as far as Kerrigan goes, I prefer my women to just look pretty and stay quiet.
No, just kidding, u'r absolutely right, it's because I have no idea how to make 'em talk yet, LOL. I'm getting on it though

#4: Yes, as soon as you open up Maya itself, you're already in a default new scene. There, you can just go up, click on "create" on the top bar, and find u'rself polygons, and the lil arrow next to it and pick a cube or something. The object will appear in the scene. You then can scale it, move it (or translate it in Maya language) and so on. That will be the very first thing you do in Maya probably, hehe. But I doubt I can go much detail into that on a post like this. Maybe we can AIM it up some time or whatever. I'll be glad to help you out.

Lastly, don't worry bout being a n00b. We're all n00bs at everything before we start it. And I can understand getting started is the hardest part. But once you get into it there's a good chance u'll just fall absolutely in love with it like I did, and u'll find urself on u'r way to making some amazing stuff. To me, it's like I'm a construction worker/creator of life with a hack, lol. Hmm... i want a tree here, *click,drag*. She's gonna run into the pole *select, keyframe.* Seriously, it's almost sick, lol.

 

ROFLMAO that sounds amazing. I'm eager to try it... now if can fit it in between making my crappy-ass websites compared to others, but they get the job done... and creating logos and posters for people just to pay for school.

This will be a great addition. I appreciate the help and answering the questions. You've kept me up 2 hours past my bedtime, but its been well worth it.

I PMed you my info, feel free to hit me up at any time and let me know how to get a hold of you, etc.

Maybe you'll create another digital media major out of my and we'll start a company

Problem is I don't have any SUPER talent for drawing. I can draw though.... decently.... Mostly like... a ship or something. I can also very easily trace by sight and copy an image or slightly change it.

EDIT: BTW, not having to pose it and save at each step sounds AWESOME... that's AMAZING!!!!!!!

 

I figured I'd post since I did see this thread and ArchLimit said to. Though you will probably be disappointed by it.

I hate 3D modeling. It is long and tedious. I've barely scratched the surface of the program and that is where I will remain because I have no will to continue any farther. If someone does post a question here and I know the answer and it has not been answered yet by Archlimit than sure, I'll answer but I won't go looking for answers.
The best thing to do is mess around with the program or look at the tutorials.

 

Well thank you for a balanced look on the subject... lol

 

Sticky!

 

Ooo Sticky Sticky! It was my idea for the post!

But it was ArchLimit's amazingness that really made it take off!

 

Okay, never done this before so I'll just ask this: How do you do it?

 

Cool, nice to see ppl are more interested in this topic.

Sooo lemme try 'n hit some of the points.

@Paragon

I'm surprised you hate modeling when you are so good at it. I'm not sure how long you've been working at it but I think most of your stuff is quite appealing. I have also visited your DeviantArt website. Great stuff. I hope this doesn't disappoint you but I actually think your modeling is a little better than some of the hand drawn work, at least of the females. But females are hard to do in any medium so it's hard to say. Anyway, I think you're pretty gifted in modeling to not pursue it further.

@Wick

Umm... "how do you do it" is kind of hard for me to just answer. I think what I've posted so far in this thread at least more or less gives you a glimpse of how you might wanna start tackling it. If you could provide a more specific question I'll have an easier time answering it for you. Thanks.

@PeterPetrell

"Trying once" will no doubt serve to only discourage most people. I think most people really need a guidance getting into it. That's the hardest part: starting. It's like you have to sort of understand how to operate in an entirely new world. I was blessed enough to take a class in it, and after you've been running at it for a while you'll be sort of fueling u'r own fire for it. You can find tutorials, buy books, etc. and you'll pretty much get it if you are dedicated enough. That's all it really takes is dedication and time. I was introduced to the Maya software last September. So I've been working at it for about 1 year, with a LOT of time dedicated to it this summer. I think if I went from a zero to 4 for the entire school year ending in May, I went from that 4 to about a 15 just during this summer because I was allowed SO much time dedicated to it. But I honestly think that if you don't have access to a knowledgeable tutor or something, buying a "Beginner's guide to Maya" should serve just fine. It might be a little rough at parts, but I basically used that book with only minor guidance from professors and think I did pretty well with that. Anyway, patience is definitely virtue for this thing

 

Okay, then let me start with this: what kind of software do you need and where do you get it, and exactly how good of a PC do you need to finish in a reasonable time? Since I have a dual core processor, would that allow me to do other things while I was running the program?

 

Ah, okay, good question. Right now, it seems that Maya and 3Ds Max (Lightwave as well maybe??) that are the top forerunners of 3D animation and modeling software. They are the most comprehensive at least. I mean, there are some software out there that are better at more specific things, like Zbrush is GREAT for modeling; beats the crap out of even Maya I'm sorry to say.

But I'm personally very fond of Maya and unfortunately not very well attuned to the other programs. But luckily Maya sustains itself pretty well. There is a personal learning edition that you can download for free on the Autodesk site.

As far as PC requirements there really isn't one, but basically the faster the better. Dual Core Processor means you're definitely in the green. I currently use a MacBook Pro (my precious darling baby) to do all my work and I think it's sufficient to do most work I'm tackling. No Starcraft cinematics productions but definitely enough to pull off some pretty good stuff without crashing during a render. If you are interested there is a link to some 3D animations I've done in my website. Those were all done on my laptop.

As far as running other programs go, you can still run iTunes or AIM or something, but I don't really see why you'd need to run something else that's RAM hungry simultaneously. I have 2gigs of Ram and that serves me just fine.

The only time you really don't wanna run anything else at all is during "rendering," which is explained in an earlier post. You want all u'r processor going towards it to facilitate a faster and secure render.

 

All right, thanks. owerup:

I guess I'll go get Maya now.

 

Okay, here's what I'm thinking of doing. For all those of you who really wanna take a good solid stab at this thing, I will host a AIM conference/chatroom (whatever you call it) at a specific agreed time in a few days sometime prior to the end of August and take you guys step by step on how to get started 'n what not. Like I said, I'd love to see more people into this stuff and I'd love to see someone who has some real talent be able to utilize it efficiently. So maybe we can work something out if y'all are interested in something like that...

 

is MAYA freeware?

 

Holy.... no, unfortunately. You'd have to get it through a torrent, etc.

 

Piracy is wrong....

Let me delete all my software worth 50k+ 8)

About design software there is also cinema4d which is good too.