China vs organs

So according to latest reports by the chinese version of the New York Times over two thirds of the organs transplanted in China come from executed chinese prisoners. It has been known for some time that the chinese government allowed prisoner organs to be taken and sold on the market but that they make up 70% of all the organs in the circulation? That's a lot even by chinese standards.
Lets all not have a minute of silence for the human rights.

 

well
they're going to die anyway. what do they need them for? I applaud China of making use of the dead, instead of just dumoping the prisoners in graves or whatever is done with them after execution. I mean, as long as they've been executed i see nothing wrong with this. what better way to help the living than with the dead?

If China is taking their organs, or killing them just FOR the organs i think it's wrong. But using them to help people? That's kickin.

 

You are not being very pragmatic about this issue.
There is the problem of it being incredibly immoral and unethical for people to profit from innocent people being killed as a mean of censorship. And arguably even those who did deserve to be executed (although there is a question of 'do we have right to send people to death no matter what they do?' which I won't go into right now) still retain rights to their body. They are still human.

Anyways I am a science geek and empirical observation is my thing so I'll use that to show why your opinion is simply wrong.
One of the tv shows I watched recently (Whale Wars) describes how the Japanese sailors hunt endangered whales for personal profit (by selling the meat on the market) which is against international law. However there is an exception which allows the Japanese to kill certain amount of whales each year for scientific research. Now if they we not allowed to profit from the meat of the whales they would mostly use non-lethal use to for example tag the wales and monitor their daily motion, perhaps kill couple of them for internal examination. However since they now have an additional interest to see the whales dead they will do everything they can to utilize their given quota to the maximum possible capacity as they profit from each death.
Now if you allow people to profit from the deaths of the prisoners an industry is going to spring up. One already did - the Chinese government profits from the death of their critics as they have to put up with less uncomfortable questions (and also by seeing murderers/rapists dead which is the [arguably] valid part of the execturions).
Now by allowing to manipulate with their organs after there is a new group of people entering the equation. An entire new industry that also has an interest in killing people. That means there will be more people trying to bribe/lobby judges, lawyers or law makers to support this kind of punishment and innevitably there will be more prisoners killed and in case of Chinese prisons that also means more of innocent people killed.
If you are to kill a person as a form of punishment make sure its a punishment. Not a form of profit for yourself because that then destroyes the supposed justice in the system.

 

Well, as a kind of BUSINESS, then sure, it would be wrong. But if those to be executed are deserved to be executed, then it's not wrong to help dying good people by donating right? And the whales you mention don't deserve to die, because they're innocent, and are not to be compared with prisoners.

 

we are all going to die eventually....does that mean that every single one of us is an organ donnor ? no

1 out of 10 ppl decides to donate his organs to help other ppl...ok maybe that number should be bigger....but thats our choice its not for others to make in my place....even prisoners have rights since they are human beings

 

innocent people? i don't know how well the legal system is in china (if there is one) but i wouldn't under any circumstances go so far as to say they're all innocent. You make it sound like they're jailing people off the streets and sentencing them to death for their body parts. And, if that's the case, it's very wrong. However, i doubt it'd be the case, and therefore I don't have

an opinion is my own view...it can't be wrong. you can't say to someone 'your opinion is wrong' you can tell them what they think isn't basedon fact, but that's the wonder of it being an opinion, i can have it whether the facts support it or not.


I am aware of said show, but i don't watch it. Also, are we not talking about -China-, and not Japan? Close as they are, that's a pretty bold and long stretch of assumption to say one is like the other, even despite their ethnic look. It's like saying The US is at fault or similar to Canada. Also, yes, it's wrong. Whales are endangered enough and now they are merely killing them to make money. It's different for humans ebcause they're not just yanked off the street and killed for science, they go through a judiciary system (whatever that's like in China and ofc i don't know it's validity, so i'm assuming it'd be a somewhat fair trial, despite it's communist roots)

The way i look at it, the government would pursue them regardless of whether they would make a profit or not. What difference is it killing a political opponent (if that's what they're doing, not that i'm saying it's right by any standards) and dumping the body or killing him and using his body to save someone else who ALSO would have died? It seems, looking at that, despite the atrocity of the death, the latter is indeed favorable because while it's wrong, it's still saving life.

Well, i didn't know it was an industry. Perhaps they should be donated. I don't agree with necessarily making a profit, especially because it's as you say on it. t gives reign for a whole new type of sales and exchange, bent on doing just what you claim: taking innocent life. Be that the case, i still see nothing wrong with the concept of giving away a prisoner's organs after they die. If it's being given monetary exchange, then it's wrong.

You seem to have misinterpreted what i meant, so i'll try to explain that. I am, in no way shape or form, promoting the killing of anyone, guilty or innocent. If it is for a punishment, and not for sales, as i thought, i find no disagreement. If it just for organs, just for money, just for what you said then yes it is wrong and you are very right. Despite that, you didn't make mention of that in the first post, i thought you were merely saying 'China kills convicted prisoners then puts them to death and sells their organs after they've been killed' and not 'china is wrongly persecuting people just so they can take their organs and sell them for profit.'

So to go back, my opinion wasn't wrong for the amount i was told, i still think the idea is a very good one, though the organs should be donated, and not sold like pieces of meat from a slaughterhouse.

EDIT:
@Sparadas: i really think every single one of us should be. What reason is there to not be one? Because you want to remain intact? Because you don't want them to take your body parts out after you die? It's selfish, that's what it is. Sure, it may worry some, but what are you doing with them after you die? They're just rotting away while a person who needs them also is. To me, it seems selfish, and it will always feel selfish maybe because i want to limit the suffering in the world. That's just me. I won't judge people who won't as selfish, though. I know many people who aren't comfortable with the idea. But just the whole essence of 'they're mine, so i'll keep them when i die' is in itself a totally narcissistic view. When you die, they aren't yours anymore, the worms and bugs and mites will eat them, how is that any worse than putting them to use for another person?

Yes, it is people's choice, and i won't say whether that's good or bad. In my mind is separates the people who are good from those who are great. and i never said they weren't humans or didn't have the right. My opinion is prisons are meant to reform so the inmate can be released and give back to society. If they must be killed then what are they giving back>? they use tax payer dollars, and tax payer space, and tax payer time. It seems giving a few people a second chance at life is a fair price to pay to give back to the people.

I don't know, i'm stuck between knowing it's human rights and wanting to save other lives that would be forfeit otherwise.

 

"an opinion is my own view...it can't be wrong. you can't say to someone 'your opinion is wrong' you can tell them what they think isn't basedon fact, but that's the wonder of it being an opinion, i can have it whether the facts support it or not."

Of course I can. Especially when - as you say you have no facts to support it.

"I am aware of said show, but i don't watch it. Also, are we not talking about -China-, and not Japan? Close as they are, that's a pretty bold and long stretch of assumption to say one is like the other, even despite their ethnic look. It's like saying The US is at fault or similar to Canada."

...No you misunderstood me completely I did not draw a parallel between Japan and China. I drew a parallel between the Japanese whale hunters and the Chinese executions.

"Also, yes, it's wrong. Whales are endangered enough and now they are merely killing them to make money. It's different for humans ebcause they're not just yanked off the street and killed for science, they go through a judiciary system (whatever that's like in China and ofc i don't know it's validity, so i'm assuming it'd be a somewhat fair trial, despite it's communist roots)"

Again I don't care much about the whales as much as I care about the mechanism which promotes the hunt for more whales. That was the point of that analogy.

"The way i look at it, the government would pursue them regardless of whether they would make a profit or not. What difference is it killing a political opponent (if that's what they're doing, not that i'm saying it's right by any standards) and dumping the body or killing him and using his body to save someone else who ALSO would have died? It seems, looking at that, despite the atrocity of the death, the latter is indeed favorable because while it's wrong, it's still saving life."

No by allowing to share their organs after they are dead you are more compelled to kill that person. It doesn't only affect the court decision but the public opinion as well.
"Well either this person gets a life sentence or he can be executed which one will it be?"
"Oh you might as well kill him because at least the people in need can get their organs."
(taken to the extreme of course)

"Well, i didn't know it was an industry. Perhaps they should be donated. I don't agree with necessarily making a profit, especially because it's as you say on it. t gives reign for a whole new type of sales and exchange, bent on doing just what you claim: taking innocent life. Be that the case, i still see nothing wrong with the concept of giving away a prisoner's organs after they die. If it's being given monetary exchange, then it's wrong."

Yes that's the minimum that should be done. Make the donations completely unprofitable and random although that's the best case scenario.

"So to go back, my opinion wasn't wrong for the amount i was told, i still think the idea is a very good one, though the organs should be donated, and not sold like pieces of meat from a slaughterhouse."

No. People have the right to their own body. That's why things such as abortion or prostitution are (or should be) absolutely legal. It also means people don't get to poke whole in you the second you are dead especially when they are the ones who killed you in the first place. Selfish or not I'd say that's your right. Now if they are given choice to either agree or disagree to use their organs after they are dead, sign some paper (and gurantee controlled conditions) then I am all for it.

Most of all I think it's simply wrong to have executions as a form of punishments. Most of western countries gave up on that system and there are some very good reasons why to get rid of them other than just the question of morals or ethics.

 

[ot]

Of course you can't. An opinion by definition can't be wrong. That's like saying green eyes is the wrong colour, or that your taste in music sucks.[/ot]

 

**Off Topic**
I can say that your 'opinion' sucks. If your opinion is that killing jews personal profit is fine I'll tell you that your opinion sucks. Stating that it's your opinion doesn't make it unchallengable. You have right to your opinion sure but I have the right to tell you what's wrong with it.
**Off Topic**

 

well then i'll stop this convo right now. as, i believe in the death penalty and have nothing against it as punishment. Also, i don't think people have the rights over abortion or being a prostitute, i don't agree with either of those. So, clearly we don't and won't see eye to eye, so i'll just leave it at i believe it's right to use organs from prisoners to help those who need them if they were rightfully sentenced to death and no one makes monetary profit off giving them away. Whether you agree or not doens't matter, because we have different opinions, and i'll leave it at that

 

All I'm going to ask is... name one part of the world where there isn't something just as equally screwed up happening?

 

in any country, a criminal will be punished by losing his rights. freedom of movement is generally the first one taken away. in countries with the death penalty, the right to life is taken away for the harsher crimes. in china, i guess they also lose the right to a proper burial (with all their organs). although, i'm not really sure that's a standard human right in the first place.

from a practical point of view, giving the dead "burials" and crap is just a waste of perfectly harvestable organs. what's the body in the ground going to do? rot? that's really gonna help people. the whole procedure is really just a byproduct of superstition, back in the day when people thought that, after you died, you would still hang around and your body still mattered to you.

 

@asdf: yeah, that was my opinion, too. i mean i think we should respect the dead, just ebcause they were once living and it's a vessel of where their mind and soul resided. But after they die they don't need their organs. And as long as you take them respectfully and honor the body, i say why not?

We dissected piglets in anatomy physiology, and though not human i had great respect for the pig that gave its life so i could learn. Most people felt this way; this animal died so i can understand our own anatomy better. But then, one person dumped a dead one in the hallway after school one day. even if it's dead, i find that wrong, and as long as they remove the organs with care, then i don' think they're usurping anyone's rights.

 

A major problem with organ donations is that the person normally has to become brain dead suddenly with a life support system close at hand for the organs to be in a good enough condition to be transplanted. This is very unlikely when coupled with the fact that the person may not even give consent for their organs to be removed especially in a country such as China which has sub par health systems.

Even though its immoral and may lead to more executions in China at least victims who are executed by the government can be killed in such a manner that their organs can be used later.

I personally believe capital punishment is a terrible thing for any country to use as it gives criminals the ultimate incentive to go down guns blazing and of course i don't see why someone should be killed for a crime they commit.

If a black market did not exist for organs there would be no incentive for the government to "harvest" them leading to less people being saved. China will keep killing dissenents and criminals because she has no reason not to, the organs are a bonus on the side in her eyes.

If they gave the organs out for free to the public would this still be a contentious issue? When really the exact same number of people would be saved.

@Higgs
Maybe i'm just too cynical but i very much doubt government controlled judges in China would want to house millions of criminals when they could very easily kill a large amount of them to save on the costs of holding them for life.

On a side note the japanese whale hunters are ******* (Coming from an Australian)!

 

The argument of killing prisoners to save money is false since even ín the country with capital punishment the percentage of people actually killed is negligible. I wont bother arguing with people in this thread anymore since they cannot understand that all actions create feedback.

 

well, actually...if they didn't have to wait on death road for years it would actually be cheaper.

And no, we get it, we just have our own views is all

 

nah , the world as we know it, faces much more bigger problems - like forexample CO2. Lets solve the bigger problems first then we can deal with the smaller problems latere.

 

Well the "offical" level of people executed in China is 0.07 per 100000 people (US is 0.02) though many organisations say the real figure is much much higher than this and make up a significant portion of people who must be imprisoned for a long period of time(Either politically or for public safety). Though i admit that arguement is relatively poor thus why i put it at the end with a comment on how cynical i am.

If your going to ignore everything else and reject all arguement why did you start argueing in the first place when you know it'll reach i point where it will be a purely subjective and you will have to insult everyone.

@ Kurai
Being on death row in China is a much shorter process than it is in America even though they added a second court of appeal in 2007 the government will quite often accelerate the speed of your appeals and thus execution (sometimes due to public opinion)

 

I didnt insult anyone. Just go on pretending to defend yourself from personal attacks that Ive never made that will help you to persuade people about your point.

@exe: Sure exe, who cares about murderers and rapists running around unpunished. Lets first try and fix the global climate before we bother with saving few people from getting murdered or robbed. Yay for logical arguments.

 

Well lets weigh those options higgs shall we? Do we A want to keep the human species alive, or B fight for human rights.