GFX and Engine Capability

Well, im sure most of you (RTS fans) would have heard about the announcment of Dawn of War 2.. no not another crappy expansion ... new game, new relic engine, based off of one of their previous games. Coming fully tooled with what appears to be quite 'next gen' graphics capabilities, proof you say!?.. erh well:

http://thq.vo.llnwd.net/o10/marketing/dawnofwar/screenshots/high_resolution/Assault_Battle.jpg

Well after i saw these screenshots i felt slightly annoyed (for lack of a better term) at how their engine seems to be able to render such high quality units compared to starcraft 2's (check out the detail on the orc faces.. etc).
Im no technology wizz, but if i remember correctly dawn of war the original had a LOT of units on screen at a time each quite detailed even for its time and the engine was able to cope with minimal lag.

So considering that they are LIKELY to be going for the same approach to amounts of units on screen at a time (close to what sc2 is aiming for). Why are sc2's units so badly detailed compared to these? I cant find any excuse technologically speaking why blizzard cannot implement better quality units and introduce SLIDERS on the graphics tab for the people with crapola PC's.

(keep in mind the games are both aiming for similar amounts of units on screen at a time)
Discuss!
/Babmer

 

Could it handle different strength internet connections and memories coming from possibly 8 people at once?
Also, look how close that is, Starcraft would not get those kinda angles where detailed renders are even needed since every player would need to watch a large area of his screen all the time as Starcraft is extremely competitive and isn't all about graphics.

 

Aye it could handle that which you speak! . But meh i think i speak for a lot of people when i say that i love to zoom in etc while playing single player campaign.. and to zoom in for ingame cinematics etc is imo quite enjoyable. Indeed to zoom in like that in dawn of wars multiplayer would also probobly result in a loss xD, but yet.. the detail is still there?

 

I don't think itd a case of can't, I think its a case of its unecessary. :]

 

Pfft, unecessary?! lots of people enjoy zooming in for teh detail.. not everyone plays the game for core multiplayer intense action you know .

 

Then Blizzard would lose some of it's core audience. Blizzard has always catered to the people with systems that are pretty old, mainly for the fact that a lot of us can't afford to drop $500 on a new motherboard/processor/Memory/video card. Finding a good balance between looking good and low end support is what they are aiming for, and I believe they hit it.

 

I dont want graphics like that mainly because im 100% positive my labtop could never run something that detailed.

I'm not even sure if it will be able to run sc2 with it's current graphics, let alone anything better.

 

When the original StarCraft was released, its graphics were "outdated" too. Blizzard does not go for "top of the line" in graphics... because if you push for people that have the best computers, you're pushing at a very small audience. Blizzard sets its games' specs lower in order to make it possible for many people to be able to play their games as soon as they're launched.

That said, SC2s graphics are quite good. As one of the few members that have played the game, I can assure you that, with the fun you'll be having playing the game you won't even notice the graphics.

When SC2 is launched, there will be RTSs on the market that look better, if you were to stop and zoom all the way in, but you'll be hard pressed to find one that plays better, or one with the kind of possibilities brought about by the game's map editor.

 

Such is irrelevant. The introduction of graphics sliders can cater to the needs of low end pc's.

 

I can't believe someone actually made yet another topic on this. SC2 doesn't need amazing graphics good. Its gameplay more than makes up for it. SC2 already has graphics sliders. So you can adjust the settings for low end PC's. The settings in the screenshots and videos are the highest. There's no need for it to be any higher, as the graphics look good already.

 

Indeed If you want graphics over gameplay don't play Sc2 and buy this then

 

The reason Dawn of War 2 is going to have such detail is that there will not be as many units in play as there were in Dawn of War 1. Dawn of War 1 was fairly numbers based, squads didn't take up too much Squad Cap and each squad could have anywhere upward of ten units in it at once. Dawn of War 2 is not going to be like this. They're focusing on fewer, more elite squads and are even personalising the portraits and possibly models of each of the Sergeants, Nobs, Aspiring Champions, etc, so that the player basically connects with them on a personal level. It's impossible for players to connect with their armies if there are hundreds of squads on the map and Marines or Orks are getting killed en masse, so they've said they're axing that aspect.

StarCraft2 on the other hand is still a game of mass numbers. It's one of the things that differentiates the teams. Zerg have extremely large numbers, Terran have fairly average numbers and Protoss have fewer numbers, but still not to the extent of the numbers in Dawn of War 2. In order to have such detail on such a large scale, everyone's computer would need amazing specs. Blizzard has already told us that they're trying to limit the required specs for StarCraft2 so that more people will be able to play it. Also as others have mentioned, Blizzard doesn't go for the top of the line graphics as it is much more gameplay based.

So, in answer to those who may believe that Dawn of War 2 is rating graphics over gameplay, you're wrong. It's a different style of gameplay which allows them to be able to improve graphics, unlike StarCraft2 where there graphics are limited by gameplay.

 

I'm at a loss. The graphics are just fine the way they are, actually I find them GREAT. Going any higher is just catering to the >5% of people that have the most top of the line computer. Blizzard would rather get the game great, not the best, so they could continue working on the gameplay aspect, you know, the thing that keeps StarCraft being played 10 years after release. If graphics are so important to you, then go pick up Crysis.

 

I never said i want it to have 'amazing' graphics, i jus said that i wanted more detail while zooming in... check out the marine and the zealot, their detail up close is very shabby for its time, dawn of war 1 had better detail up close! and as i stated around the same amount of units on screen at the time as sc2. Now, i understand and i also agree that the graphics look great, but to say that the detail of units up close is 'great' seems kinda silly from what we have seen..

@CyberPitz:
Ok as i said above, simple details like better faces etc (checked the dow2 screen i showed?) would not be catering to a small 5%.. AS i said many times, there are lots of people who enjoy seeing convincing unit models/faces when they zoom in and to provide this (from a technological viewpoint) would not be much of a backache, on their development, nor on the games fps.

 

Do you know how many would like to zoom in a see a nose and eyes in OK detail? Is it really such a large number that Blizzard should stop what they are doing and fix the facial animations on the few times you will actually be able to see it?

A lot of people are happy with the way the graphics are, except for the people who think think the game is too cartoonish though that's an art style, not graphics level. I don't think Blizzard would even think twice about changing the level of detail to that extent unless more than 50% of the fanbase cry out in pain without it. It's a luxury for that, while everything else is a need. I figure if they are VERY far ahead of themselves, and enough people want better faces on the models, they will do it. But as of right now, I see it as a useless and time wasteful addition they could do.

 

Well i suppose ultimately it goes down to opinion, and its probobly too late for them to start adjusting most of their models to such an extent, so mrhm.. However i didnt want like UBER close eye action detail etc etc.. just for them to spend some more time to give the units MORE personality by possibly adding more than a few polys and pretending it constitues a face.

 

I see exactly what you mean, and I'd agree with you completely if we had more face time with them. With games like DoW 2 and such, you see the faces an awful lot, so it would make sense that they would at least make the faces look decent. Plus, they have put into effect graphics that low end systems can't handle, unfortunately. So people with the lower end systems will have to wait until the upgrade to play the game. Sure, they can lower the graphics all the way down, but that still wouldn't do enough to probably make it a smooth game playing experience.

All in all, you are right, it is all down to opinion. I wouldn't mind seeing a mod of SC with enhanced graphics, like I've seen done with quite a few games.

 

Aye, mod sounds great . Cant wait to try out the powa of the new editor.. perhaps even make some custom models of my own

 

Finally, I've found what I was looking for. Ever since I first read this thread I've been looking all over for this image, I scoured this forum, sc2armory, starfeeder, gamespot and done several Google searches, for both the web and images, and I finally found it just now. Anyway, enough of that. On to the image and my point.

As I said before, Dawn of War 2 is a completely different game to StarCraft2. They're both RTS's, but that's where the similarities end. StarCraft2 is a game of having large armies and lots of units. Even Protoss, who have the smallest armies in the game, have tonnes of unit. Units are constantly being massed, killed, ambushed, sacrificed and suicided. No matter what team you play and who you're up against, chances are that there will be huge casualties. Because there are so many units on the screen at the one time, the graphics have to be toned down. The graphics are still great, but there are few intricate details. However, because there are such large numbers, players will not be zooming in that far in the first place because it will be impossible to tell what's going on around you. These two factors basically cancel each other out. There are large numbers so the graphics can't be too detailed, and no-one will be zoomed in enough to view this detail anyway. The answer is to make smaller, less detailed models. Obviously in custom campaigns people will want to be able to show units up close, etc, but that is not the main goal for StarCraft2. Blizzard has already been lenient enough for us in the Campaign Editor by including all the old units and unused models.

Dawn of War 2 is not a game of numbers. Every unit is significant and every casualty will be dearly felt, and not only because of the time and resources that will be required to replace them. Relic has announced that you will not be able to control more than six squads, now unless they've increased the number of units per squad to about thirty, they've drastically reduced the number of units on the playing field. With an even greater selection of wargear and unique Sergeant models and portraits, players will have a much stronger connection to their army and squads, much greater than StarCraft2, WarCraftIII or Dawn of War 1. The closest that Blizzard have gotten to this level of connection is with heroes in WarCraftIII but even they didn't reach the extent of Dawn of War 2. It is true that players would have connected with their heroes, they were a unique unit with their own unique abilities and models, and could be equipped your choice of items, but there were no consequences. Players could charge their heroes into the midst of the enemies base, get a couple of quick kills before dying and then recreate the exact same hero, good as new, from their Altar. This will not be the case in Dawn of War 2. If your squad dies, it's dead. If a unit dies, it's dead. No matter how much time and effort is put into equipping and fighting with your squad, nothing will bring them back. Heroes in WarCraft could also be given their own items, but at most, they got a little coloured ball to spin around their weapon. In Dawn of War 2, the whole model changes, but not only does the whole model change, it will now have different animations and interact differently with other units in the game. For example, if you equip a Sergeant a Thunder Hammer, not only will the actual unit now be holding a Thunder Hammer, but it will wield it differently, and if it comes across an Ork Warboss, the Warboss will say things like 'Ooh, nice hammer, but mine is bigger!'. It is all to do with relating to the small number of units that you will command. Due to this, they are able to put more detail into each unit as there are not too many of them clustering up the screen. Also, players will be zoomed in more as battles will not be fought across large distances. This means that not only will there be larger, more detailed models, but the players will also be close enough to take in all this detail.

This is why in StarCraft2, units will look like this close up:

Notice how it is still detailed, but it is done so simply. It has the headdress, eyes, hair, mouthpiece and skin texture, but they are all done with very simple patterns. The headdress, hair and mouthpiece are all flat colours with a slight gradient in some places. The eyes are not glowing, as Protoss eyes tend to do, but they also have no pupils, but it is done without making the model look sinister, as images without pupils usually tend to be. The skin texture is done with a simple grid-like pattern. The model is full of simplified detail.

However in Dawn of War 2, units look more like this close up:
These faces have a lot more personality and character, but above all, emotion. It is impossible to have a game where the player bonds with their squadrons without showing any personality or emotion. Unlike the Zealot's model, which was cut down into specific areas, these Orks faces are a whole. There is nothing to break it down into. You can see the tension in their brow, the sheen of their sweat and the hatred in their expression. The model is detailed and contains a lot of intricacies, like the ears, brow, nose, lips and teeth, which is practically unheard of in StarCraft2.

Why is this done? StarCraft2 requires less detail in order to function as StarCraft. It is a game of numbers so not only would it require extraordinary specs to run, but no-one would be close enough to appreciate that level of detail. Dawn of War 2 enables Relic to develop their graphics to a much higher level of detail. There are far less units meaning that each model can be much more detailed and players will be up much closer and able to appreciate that level of detail.

 

Omg where did u get the picture of the close up zealot! :O. You got any other pictures of close up units in sc2?

Oh and yeah btw ur probobly right.