Seriously, I can't do this anymore. I was #1 in plat, then in EVERY SINGLE GAME I PLAYED I started either getting cannon rushed or proxy 3gate zealot from toss, or stupid early 10 marines at my base out of 4 barracks. Now I'm at #10, just because zerg can't defend properly to all this cheese play. Btw I'm opening with 15h 14p, and there's nothing I can do. Even if I make pool before hatch, zealots or cannons will always win. Really, really sucks.
Alright. Now you may not be aware of this but a pool starting at 16 is insanely greedy. 15 is greedy, 14 is standard, 13 is early. And you're not even going pool first. I only go hatch first when I can metagame my opponent. Other than that, any competent player (regardless of their race) will rush/block you. 14 pool is standard and allows for 13/15 extractor and 14 hatch (the most common orders). You should try one of these. Also practice expanding at 21 - it's a solid build. ps if you get cannon rushed that's your fault... the other rushes can also be scouted so you don't have any excuses since spines are very good
Problem is I can't lay more than 1 spine that they are already at my base. Usually when the first one completes, it's already bleeding on red. Guess I will just have to change the build to a 14p 14h or something then... Thanks for your input btw Edit: and yeah, I've been failing in scouting big time, scouting terran is nearly impossible with marines killing overlords and the wall they make in front. Proxy gates are nearly impossible to see before you got zealots in your main, unfortunately.
I haven't read the posts on this thread yet but i can just start by saying that i allmost allways go 14 pool and 20 hatch ^^ for some reason i just find that to be the best strategy for me too use :3
Scouting also includes things you don't see. The matchmaking ensures that if you don't see a building that you're used to it doesn't mean they suck but that it's hidden elsewhere. You should start scouting at 9 or 10 and if you miss building(s)s then immediately stop drone production and put down at least 1 cawler and produce lings. Crawler placement is also crucial, and don't be afraid to put down as many as 3 crawlers if need be - you're ahead in drone count so giving up some advantage won't hurt you. As for the means of scouting, 1 ling halfway up the ramp and back down. If you need to see further in then don't be afraid to sacrifice ling(s). What most Z don't realise is that they're ahead in worker count from the start (except v P for a short time) and that their production allows them to react quickly. Don't be concerned with not losing the odd unit here and there for scouting because there's plenty more where those come from.
I always let lings at the towers and at least a pair in front of their base, so I know when they are pushing out. As for the crawlers, I tend to make more than I need to feel safe, like against 4gate pushes I go for like 5 crawlers, but they always hold it. And I always scout at 12-13 with a drone, then later they are usually walled in and I can just scout protoss by sacrificing an overlord, terran will just kill my overlord with marines before I can see anything relevant. Guess I will just start grabbing my expo a bit later instead of going for it first.
You're gonna get cheesed every time going 14 hatch. I could beat you with any race if you went 14 hatch. Go like, 19-21 hatch. You'll have a better early game economy, and be able to hold off any push easily and unless you're playing against bronze players who don't scout, you're always gonna get scouted and they are just gonna push you and kill your expo because they know you won't have enough min for any units, and you're spending all your larva on drones. Plus if you DID somehow miraculously make enough units to hold of an early push with a 14 expo, you'd be out so much min and larva, it would take you until like 30 supply to get your expo saturated anyways, so why not just wait until 21ish, get a good econ with a few extra workers. Throw down a roach warren at 23ish, and few crawlers and then you're good to go. Your opponent won't automatically rush you since its a standard expo time, and by the time it finishes, you;ll have enough workers to saturate right away plus the safety of being able to pop like 5 roaches when you need them and still maintain a good larva injection rate that you can keep a steady worker flow + defend when needed.
/agrees btw when i go against Protoss i like to go Zergling-Hydra into ultralisks ^^ aaaaand mix in some mutas aswell
HOLD UP HOLD UP hold up hold up... Did you really just say: "Proxy gates are nearly impossible to see before you got zealots in your main, unfortunately" to proxy gate the Protoss needs to build ALL of his structures in the proxy location... If you send a drone into his base... you will know he's doing it... AS SOON as your drone gets into his base. If you actually want to learn more and get better, then watch some games or livestreams. I would NOT recommend my channel, its mainly for entertainment. You won't get better just by repeatedly slamming your face against the wall in ladder, try and learn the game and come up with some working builds.
Damn. You must be pretty boss at ling flanking to survive the mid-game with a squishy comp like that If you're having trouble scouting Terrans with ovies, try circling around the edge of their base at an angle they won't expect and just go for the suicide scouting. If you get lucky, you might spot tech at the edge and won't even have to lose the ovie. Doesn't always end that well, unfortunately.
This thread doesn't even make sense. Going 15 hatch is basically a form of cheese itself, you are being so so risky because its so hard to defend, hoping that you can somehow hold it off and get a big eco advantage. If you keep getting rushed there's a simple answer: stop going hatch before pool! You are ready to quit playing before you are ready to use a standard build?
#1 Plat losing to cheese bc he does 14 Pool, 15 Hatch and he needs help figuring out what to do?!? :wacko:
scout better, if you notice danger, stop drone production build spine crawlers, pump lings, micro for you life.
I am a lower level player so I see a lot of cheese, but I do know about how annoying it is to deal with the cheese crap, hate to say it but you might have to rush or be rushed.
This is so very far from the truth. In ZvT, 15 hatch is the standard opener. In ZvP, 15 hatch is standard if it's on a large map or if Protoss does not block the hatch going down. In ZvZ 15 hatch is more risky, but the OP doesn't mention any problems with ZvZ. To the OP: You do not need to change your opening (it might make it easier, but I believe you can learn to defend the 15hatch). Against early marines you will need to drop a spine and make lings. Against a 4+ rax, you will need a quick baneling nest or a bunch of spines. Against a cannon rush, well, you should be scouting your own base and shouldn't allow him to get cannons up. If he does get cannons up, cancel your expo and tech straight to roaches to bust out. Against proxy gates, you WILL know if he is proxy gating you if you send a 10-12 drone to his base and see no gates there. 15 hatch is near impossible to hold against a proxy 2 gate if you don't scout it, so if he is proxy gating you you'll probably want to cancel the hatch at the last second (get his zealots to waste time attacking it) while making a defensive spine and a ton of lings or teching to roaches in your main. None of the strategies you mention are impossible to deal with, you just have to work on your early game awareness and knowing how to react. This advice coming from a Master's level Zerg (I say this just so people know I'm not totally clueless. My opinion is still just my personal view and not necessarily more valid than a bronze zerg player's opinion. Just know that I can open 15hatch and defend all of the different cheeses the other races have to offer).
Your definition of standard might be different from what the majority of people work with. 15 hatch is extremely far from standard in any matchup. Moreover, if you defend a 15 hatch with masses of crawlers and/or lings, you're putting yourself behind. Which is why next to nobody goes 15 hatch.