One of the more mysterious things about Starcraft that I always thought was kind of weird was how the command center for terran yielded them 10 additional food, while nexus yields protoss 9 and the hatchery only yields zerg 1 food. I've been told that the issue on whether or not zerg "HAS" to expand first gets some attention from time to time around here... People say that in stacraft 2, zerg will not have to expand first. I'm afraid that this is a huge flaw in how zerg should function. Zerg should definitely have to expand first. Why? Because they share warrior production with economic production. It's a fact that zerg should make hatchery before pool, and have it be at an expansion. I'm saying, in all the possible build orders, zerg should always be able to hatch first and quite easily survive just a standard gate or barrack first push. When a protoss does the 1 gateway zealot rush build... this should not force zerg to pool first. Zerg should still be able to hatch and then pool, and get lings in time to defend against that zealot. But why can't zerg do it? The reason why is because zerg cannot do the build order of 10 hatch 9 pool 8 lord.... It doesn't work... it does not keep zerg's economy in a continual progression. But lets say that a hatchery yielded the +10 food that terran gets from making a command center... Now zerg can 10 hatch 9 pool and actually keep economic growth momentum. Actually, I think that perhaps the hatchery was suppose to equal 9 food, equal to what the nexus gives toss. When it comes to the pattern of two same one different it makes sense. The command center yields 10 food, while the hatch and the nexus yield 9. This would naturally mean that zerg would start with 17 food. 9 from hatch 8 from lord. If protoss gets food from nexus and pylon while terran gets 10 from CC and 9 from depot.... then how is this even fair for zerg?
Zerg can scout without the risk of losing the scout. How is that fair? Because the scout provides control (please people, let's lay off of the term food... this isn't warcraft). Also... I pretty much stopped reading there. You still don't understand that starcraft is all about scouting and adapting, making sacrifices in order to gain in the long run, yet you pretend to be in a position to lecture the millions of people who find Starcraft perfect as is. Now the only question I keep asking myself when I see another one of your threads is not related to Starcraft or your knowledge about it (since you've shown countless times that you don't know much about it). It's about whether you realise or not that practically nobody shares your views yet you keep posting them as if you wanted to spark discussion when your assumptions completely rule out sensible talk simply because of how preposterous they are. If it weren't for your seemingly deep posts and relatively good English I would suspect you to be a troll. Now, in order not to seem like one, you should consider what others respond in your threads and weigh them with regard to how the game actually is. That is to say, if there haven't been any changes of the nature you are proposing after one decade, then perhaps it really is fine as it is and you're trying to fix what isn't broken? Do you ever think about this btw?
I do, but I'm going to respond to your point that zerg gets a free scout at start. See, that's where the whole problem comes in..... Zerg still scout with drone anyways.... I think that zerg should start with out the overlord, and have to make it just like a scv has to make a depot or a protoss makes a pylon... But that hatcheries would either count as 10 or 9 food, so that, for example... A zerg could 10 hatch 9 pool, then would make two more drones, and then by the time hatchery gets done, the primary hatchery would hit 3 larvae... at least, that is my speculation... and then the economic flow/warrior out put potential would be clear cut. No one cares as much about starcraft as I do, that's my opinion. Ultimately, there isn't enough purpose to the overlord at start... you have to get all your warriors to money, in which case there is a delay for you to send out your overlord... Furthermore everything can still be accomplished that the overlord does at start with the drone... that's how terran and protoss do it anyways.
Well I stand from the point that either zerg should be unique from the other two or not... Not some half assed inbetween. Either hatchery should be a universal building and also fulfill a defensive role Or, all the races should at the most basic level be the same, but also totally different. If zerg is really unique then make them unique, if the races are the same then make them the same. Either the game is founded upon the 2-1 pattern for each race on a general function, and then a 2-1 pattern is implemented specifically through out the game.. Or the game is founded upon equality where the races start out the same and the 2-1 pattern would still be implemented specifically to generate the uniqueness of each race. Remember Hatchery makes food it makes warrior it makes economy it techs etc. And in reality, i'm not abandoning the 2-1 principle. Terran command center counts as 10 food Nexus counts at 9 Hatchery counts at 1? If it counted as 10 or 9 then we would have 10 10 9 or 10 9 9
Well thinking only in extremes certainly makes things simpler. Also more boring. SC is about the subtle, marked, and drastic differences all at once. It's why the races are same in some aspects (like resources, upgrades [bear in mind Zerg used to be unique even in this latter in an alpha build]), mildly different in some (supply/control/psi, building placement) and very different in others (unit production, building method, biological/mechanical composition). Utilising the whole spectrum provides for a more varied and rich game. As an added bonus, it makes switching races easier for casual players.
I still insist that the way it was suppose to be was that zerg would not start out with the overlord. Why should zerg start out with multiple duties from the start, sending drones to minerals and then sending overlord out to scout? Furthermore, if zerg did not start with overlord, would it really make a difference in scouting? Absolutely not, especially when zerg had Burrow early on in the first place... Once you concluded that your opponent wasn't expanding you just sent your overlord right back home like a frightened dog with its tale between its legs for the risk of wraith or corsair. The hatchery should have counted as either 9 or 10 food, and in this way, Making hatchery first for zerg would be equally standard for terran making barrack first or protoss making gateway first. But it is not. But what did blizzard do as a weak effort to correct this? A dual gas mechanic, that made the game absurd.
That's called a paradox. It doesn't make any (and I mean any) sense. I've read through most of your threads (and there are a lot), reading what you have to say. I'm impressed by your enthusiasm, and I don't mean to sound rude, but you are pretty much always wrong. It seems like your suggestions always have to do with Terran being too good, or Zerg being underpowered. I'm forced to assume that you primarily play Zerg, and you get beaten by Terran a lot. You have already tried changed your strategy, but it isn't working and you're upset. Instead of making an angry, nonsensical post, you instead try to prove why you (and thus the Zerg race) need a power boost to keep up with Terran (and to some extent, Protoss as well, I'm sure). That's nice and good and all, but you have to realize that maybe Zerg is balanced (in fact, maybe all the races are balanced). Maybe tons of people have been working to balance these three races and this game for years. Over a decade if you include starcraft 1. These people are professionals. Don't you think hatcheries giving 9 supply was brought up? Do you honestly think they just 'skipped' that issue? Of course not, that's ridiculous. Hatcheries not supplying supply was done intentionally to balance Starcraft 2. Just because you don't see why something is as it is, does not mean there is no reason for it to be as it is. Your frustration with the game does not make it unbalanced. Watch some high level games: Zerg is not suffering, because it isn't the race, it's the player of the race, that makes the game. Maybe the races are balanced but you were placed against far superior players (it's happened to me). What I'm saying is that the game has been thoroughly balanced over years by professionals, and your sudden insights of genius have probably been brought up and dismissed thousands of times by those creating the game. So, in short, you are wrong. Making hatcheries give supply would probably break the game.
I stopped reading when he posted awhile ago about art theory in video games and got the primary colors wrong.
I'll give you a perfectly good example Kuvasz Zerg Vrs Protoss The protoss player makes a pylon out in front of natural expansion first... and then scouts... very standard... The protoss player then sees that the zerg player made hatch first, so the protoss player makes a nexus at natural and then makes a forge immediately after to prepare for zergling. The protoss is getting the control from that nexus plus the pylon, while the zerg, who expanded first only gets 1 from the hatch and 9 from the overlord. An unfair advantage in control for the protoss. Even if the zerg made two hatch, which is what they would do against a fast expanding protoss, the protoss still has an unfair advantage in control.
Yes, of course it is called a paradox. That's how the tension should exist between the races. The primary colors which are equally different from each other, are also equally the same. Thematically and philosophically speaking there can be no greater logical explanation for it.
Yes but it balances out because a spawning pool let's you create spine crawlers and zerglings. The protoss player can only make cannons unless he builds a gateway. Also his hatchery is 300 minerals compared to the protoss 400. Your really not thinking this clearly bro.
As a zerg player i have to say, the current arrangements are fine. Your way doesn't seem any more fun or better for me.
I still don't get why these don't get moved to the StarCraft Original section. AtlasMeCH doesn't even consider the nerfs/buffs that each races has gotten in SC2. In fact, I'm pretty sure he stated in one of his threads that he only talks about supposed balance issues in relation to SC:BW
I didn't see where this was. I always assume people can read and determine where they should post. I know, I'm gullible. Atlas: Your example is not good, let alone perfect. Why do you completely disregard important resources such as time and minerals and gas? You can't just evaluate a certain strategy by the number and tech of buildings/units... remember, everything is balanced in SC. If a certain strategy proved to be too strong at some point, but nerfing hitpoints/abilities would make it useless later on, then they can always tamper with build time and cost, a fine example of which would be the build times on the forge, reactor, and marine, as we have seen in one of the patches (I know it's SC2 but it proves my point - they were too strong early on so they made them come later).
I think we all should just take the game for what it is...if you like it, play it, if you dont like the way its balanced...don't play it. I have never seen(in the many years ive played) any reason for change, i equally play all three races, and sometimes i win, sometimes i lose. Furthermore, i do believe that the races are all underpowered in their own way. Terran I believe are exponentially better late game, and zerg have the upper hand early game. Especially if you expand. Protoss is very situational, depending on the player, I have seen many players that own early game with protoss, and some people that just plain suck, and you can come close to leveling their base with 12 Zerglings. The Whole game is dependent on the player.
