Iraq

Should the US pull out of Iraq now? Should they set up a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq? Discuss your reasons why or why not. Also, since people here are from a variety of countries, state which country you are from to get a better idea of where these thoughts are coming from.

I would prefer if responses stayed away from ones like "i hate bush being in iraq is dumb" or "bush is great and we should be in iraq." Instead, provide reasons behind why you think the way you do. These reason could stem from personal beliefs, facts as you see them, etc.

 

Personally, I see all war as a hideous thing, a testament to human failings. (I will say that wars like WWII had purpose though.)

This war is no different than any other war, most likely worse. Ok, Al-Queda bombed us and we went to war in Afghanistan. At least that was justified. Iraq? Not a chance. Now we're stuck in a bloody war of a attrition, and we're losing. We should just pull out. We really can't make the country worse by pulling out, no matter when people say "Everything will collapse".....There is nothing to collapse.

 

I don´t really know the answer to that question, but I´m pretty sure the decision will not be primarily based on behalf of american soldiers or iraqi civilians. In fact, the decision will unfortunately be made on behalf of a few rich, selfish and powerful individuals. I wish these kind of things would change once in the history of mankind.
Brazillian here!

 

I don't care as long as there isn't a draft. I don't feel like having to flee to Canada.

 

you better start caring. the war is bleeding us dry, everything imported will cost alot more. of all the things you use each day, how many of them are made in the USA?

 

Coleman tools are.

 

Afghanistan was justified in my opinion. Plus it was supported by both NATO and the UN. Iraq was a mistake to go into in the first place and we're paying the price. It's going to really hurt the economy in about 5 years, and it will leave us in a vulnerable state. But, there's no point in looking to the past and we just have to deal with what we got.

We should have focused more on Afghanistan, that's for sure, we shouldn't of used our resources to take out a branch when we could have taken out the head while we still could. Now, Osama's name is too big, you can't kill him anymore because that would make him a martyr.

I don't particularly like talking about Iraq because then I deal with all the Anti -Bush and Pro-Bush fanatics that are out there, and that's not too appealing to me.

I say we pull out, but not all at once. We need to pull out, say 1/3 of our troops at one time to pressure the Iraqi governemnt into dealing with its own problems, then take more and more out as we go along.


In reality, this war could seriously become the turning point in US dominance of the world. With rising countries such as China and India, we are really falling behind. One that looks especially poised to take the leading spot from what I've observed lately is Russia. Russia and the West have been in a strained position as of late, and Russia is definitely not going down. Economically and Militarily, its getting back into the game.

We're gonna have to do some serious work in the next decade or so to get back up to shape.

 

a big problem in iraq is that we aren't fighting the terrorists effectively. the US still thinks that this is 1942, where we meet the enemy on open ground, and that simply sin't the case.

 

Of course Iraq wasn't justified. Nevertheless, the situation we are in in Iraq is the situation that was used to justify going to war in Iraq, that there was links to terrorism. Currently, most of the anti-US insurgents are not Iraqis, they are fundamentalist Islamic terrorists. Iraq is two battlegrounds. One between two religious sects for power, the Sunni and the Shiite. The other an anti-US terrorist insurgency. The United States tries to contain this violence and reduce the civilian casualties. So, if we pull out that violence will only increase. The other groups there are anti-US and are there to cause as much damage as they can to the US. They are not there to seize power or create stability. They are there to cause terror. Bombs explode in market places killing hundreds of Iraqi civilians. Mortar rounds fired by insurgents hit schools and offices disrupting day to day life and killing more innocent civilians. Suicide bombers walk into crowds of pilgrims heading to a holy city and kill hundreds instantly wounding hundreds more.

You can sit comfortably in your home saying "Iraq will weaken us" "the economy will be ruined" or give any other justification but you and I cannot imagine what it is like to be a civilian trapped in a country that is tearing itself apart. The US, its allies, and the Iraqi government is trying to curb the violence and create stability. Power hungry individuals and terrorists do not want this to happen. They don't want peace, they don't want safety. You don't have to agree with Bush (I don't think Bush is a good president at all) or anyone else but the Iraqi people should not suffer even more because of the selfish reasons of people who were born far better off than they were.

Looking back in history, the US occupied Germany after World War II and still has military forces stationed there. At this time Germany wants the US forces there. However, there were terrorist attacks against US forces in West Germany all the way into the 70s. There was not as much attention given to them because they did not occur as often and the main focus of the American public was on the USSR, Korea, and Vietnam.

During the Vietnam War more Canadians came to the US to fight in the war than there were US citizens who fled to Canada to avoid it. Also, only 20% of the troops there were draftees, the rest were enlisted. And the national guard and reserves had not been called into service in the Vietnam War. So, based on history, even if there was a draft you would probably not get sent to Iraq even if you were drafted.

 

See, I understand how civilians there live in terror every day, as a matter of fact, both my parents came from El Salvador, where they were shoved into the middle of a civil war. When they tell me about what they dealt with, its a trippy feeling for me. I will admit that I can't relate to what they're are going through, and I hope I'll never have to go through what they are.

What frustrates me the most about Iraq is the Iraqi Government itself that just seems to be leaning entirely on US aid instead of striving to make it so we have a chance to pull out.

 

i really dont know how to phrase it well, so look at this.


anyways, the thing is that the US is doing a crappy job currently, a large factor in why the war is going to badly. we bust one hideout, and there are a hundred others still out there. cutting off the head wont work, because these aren't ants or an animal. they're like weeds, take out one place and more spring up. the US doesn't seem to understand that yet. to deal with weeds, we have to take away what lets them grow, in this case, the large amounts of funding that they get. weeds need ground to grow, as well as water and air. they may have the ground to grow, they may have hatred to water tehir motives, but without air, they choke.

and why would they? what reason is there for them to exert all of their resources on a problem to relieve us.

 

It is a lot easier said than done hillzagold, these terrorists are crafty and their hierarchy is loose, some groups are not even affiliated with one another, but they do have a common enemy which is the United States of America.

The Iraqi government itself is divided with group withdrawals and power struggles within the cabinet. Remember Moqtada Al-Sadr? He has six followers seated in the cabinet and controls 30 seats in the 275-member parliament. If anything, Iraq's future depends on his mood.

We are losing men and women out in Iraq but trust me, a whole lot of them want to stay and help the Iraqi people. If we were to pull out, there would be a vacuum of power. The sectarian violence will increase and the militant islamic groups will see this as an opportunity to create another islamic fundamentalist state. Look at it now, violence has decreased in places that were once hotbeds of activity and without the United States, the Iraqi people and government will suffer even more. If you do get a chance, do not believe the media. They have a tendency to distort everything and make it look bad just for a good story.

Of course they are growing because we are outsourcing most of our utilities and jobs to them, however both economy's (especially China) depend on the United States for a majority. I think it is funny that the United States is the only one with balls enough to take on whatever challenge. Look at it's so called allies, always disagreeing with this and that.

The fact is terrorism is a huge problem now and the fact that we are fighting them over there truly makes a statement.

"Let every nation know, whether, it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival of liberty." -- President John F. Kennedy, 1961

It is true that the United States fights more of a conventional war, however most of our troops deployed there have been trained in unconventional warfare. It is just hard for us to spot who is friend or foe, terrorists and anti-US militiamen dress up as civilians and wreak havoc by sniping troops in a busy marketplace, placing bombs, etc. etc. It is just like "Where's Waldo?" except Waldo is a dangerous person loaded with weapons. We cannot just bomb whatever we want to bomb because there are civilians present and most of the battles fought take place in towns and villages, there is nothing on open ground. The terrorists know that they will lose on open ground which is why they choose to use scare tactics and other lowly methods.

Here is something that I bet you have never heard of:
U.S. field hospitals in a F.O.B or any other place deemed to be safe take in injured and ill, despite the fact that most of them are enemies who only wish to kill us. We still take them and cradle them back to life and good health.

“For those who fight for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.

Those who have fought for freedom, and have lost it, know a sadness and sense a loss beyond bearing.

Freedom rings loudest for those denied Freedom."

I am from Guam (it is a U.S. territory out in the Pacific Ocean) and my sister has served two combat tours in Iraq.

 

indeed it will be difficult, but it's probably the most effective way.


It is true that the United States fights more of a conventional war, however most of our troops deployed

indeed the soldiers know how to fight unconventionally, but the US public, and most likely the politicians, see this as an ordinary war, that it's just a battle with one side as the winner and one side as the loser. a classmate of might said that the war was a football game, and wouldn't listen when i tried to explain how it wasn't.

 

The War in Iraq is not anti-terrorism.

It is for the US to take control over crude oil supplies, since the majority of the planet's crude oil deposits are sitting under the Middle East. IMHO it is a selfish and greedy thing to do. Crude oil prices skyrocketed after the war began. And we need to realise that the supply of crude oil is finite.

The best solution is to switch to renewable energy on a large scale. Make good use out of the deserts in Nevada by installing mass amounts of solar panels. Research into ways at which a vehicle can stall enough electricity to run for 500km. And research into ways where a car can recharge its batteries in less than 10mins. The main power grid should be sourced from solar. There are many deserts around the world where the sun shines 360 days a year.

 

Did you even read my second post mc2?

 

mc2 is correct.

most of the 'terrorism' in Iraq isnt actually terrorism but crossfire between different islamic sects killing eachother. if the countries involved in Iraq actually entered into proper diplomatic discussions with the groups involved then the situation will be resolved much faster than just sending more troops to die.

 

I agree with that. something saddam hussein managed to do real well, bringing all these sects under control. after the invasion they started to run wild, and now the US cant control them.

i think the US made really many mistakes before they even started in planning, and in the early stages, and now it too late, after 5 years of almost nothing, and with the pullout and the public disaproval, to start trying to make things better. frankly, i think the US is ****ed in iraq. interesting to see how they will try to get out of this sticky mess they made.

yeah, US is the most hated country in the world, their image ruined, and the war is still not over.

 

How on Earth can I forget to post a warning message?? So here it goes.

All members that wishes to post here, you must post sensitively, using common sense and maturity. Politics is always a sensitive issue so make sure whatever you are posting, it will not offend others

NO flame wars, NO heated debate, NO boxing matches. Friendly discussions ONLY.

And remember that political and religious discussions in general are discouraged on this forum.

 

I beg to differ mc2, the War in Iraq is anti-terrorism. Crude oil prices skyrocketed even before the invasion as the OPEC decided to raise it's prices as a means of safeguarding their interests, individually and collectively. It is true that the United States did promise over $20 billion in reconstruction money in the form of credit against Iraq's future oil revenues, however if we just wanted the oil, why would we waste so much resources and man-power trying to restore the country's infrastructure? If we were there just for the oil, why would we care about their schools? their utilities? their hospitals? Is it just a facade? I do not think so.

Where does it state that the United States is there just for the oil? And when did you become a leading expert in global affairs stating what is correct and what is not? You state this as a matter of fact but where is the proof? If anything, there have been vast oilsand deposits recently discovered in North America.

Terrorism can be defined as the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives. These two groups commit heinous crimes by targeting the civilian population, places of worship, etc. etc. (just read what paragon had to say about it.) If that is not terrorism, then what is it? Crossfire? I do not think so. Also we just so happen to lose men and women to IEDs on roads, snipers in market places, and rockets to our vehicles which are all clearly and distinctly marked by the coalition symbols, battle dress uniforms, etc. etc. It just so happens that our troops are mistaken for members of opposing religious groups.

Like I said before, it is easier said than done. Countries have tried to engage in talks with all of the groups to help unify Iraq, however a compromise cannot be met as one group would like this thing while the other group would like that.

He managed to do it well because he persecuted and ostracized the other groups. Without Hussein's rule, these groups were free to rise up and try to gain power over the once Sunni-dominated country.

It is the result of the United States taking on the role of global police, do you see any other country doing that? If the Democrats do win, we can see a definite pullout of Iraq, but then we would have a whole fledgling country that will spawn more pessimistic, anti-US feelings.

 

As soon as Iraq's puppet government was set up they rewrote the laws on foreign ownership, allowing American companies to buy Iraq's oil feilds. I am by no means an expert, however neither are you.

What is happening in Iraq is a civil war, Sunni/Shi'ite/Kurd militant groups are fighting all over Iraq for dominance. As soon as occupying forces leave an area that is declared 'safe' the militant factions move back in and start killing eachother again.
If America were to pull out tomorow the violence wouldnt stop.

i don't think anyone was disagreeing with this, there is clearly a large underground resistance fighting to free Iraq from all occupying forces.

Its not just America, England and Australia were stupid enough to join in aswell. The reasons for going into Iraq were never justified, Hussein wasn't building WMD's and the 'evidence' presented to the UN by America was completley fabricated.