Morals

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Babmer, Jan 23, 2009.

Morals

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Babmer, Jan 23, 2009.

  1. Babmer

    Babmer Guest

    I would truely like to discuss, maturely, and pleasantly, with respect; your morals.

    If there was one thing i could ask of the religious people here, its to truely question the morals of god expressed in the bible. And if deep down, you actually agree with them.




    This discussion in below videos is not bias, and greatly summs up my sadness with the morals you guys adhear too.

    So please. If you truely want to question your beliefs, like a smart person should! Then watch these videos, then discuss the arguments shown.

    Part 1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HicMh19X_MA&feature=related

    Part 2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pCoCJURhZ3E&feature=related

    To summ up some of the argument in the video
    God as he is expressed in the bible is morally inferiour.

    God creates a system KNOWING that people are not going to be able to live up to his standards because he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. Yet still sends people to spend an eternity in hell for not accepting jesus christ as their saviour.

    I am going to burn in hell for eternity, despite living a kind and friendly life. Why do you worship a god with morals as flawed as such?
     
  2. Darktemplar_L

    Darktemplar_L New Member

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    Good thing I don't, however I do still have very good morals. I do not steal someone's belongings and I'm not the mean kind of person. I do think that God's rules are pretty weird. Like babmer said, he still sends people to hell for not accepting Jesus.
     
  3. ItzaHexGor

    ItzaHexGor Active Member

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    Ahhh, but God is all forgiving, is he not? If he's all forgiving, then, according to my philosophical interpretation of this phrase, he forgives all. If he forgives all how can there still be sinners?
     
  4. Psionicz

    Psionicz New Member

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    I see the term 'God' as a way to express the intelligence of the entire universe, the manifest and unmanifest.

    Religion was created by aliens to keep us locked in this grid so we do not connect to the cosmos which ends their rule as it depends on ignorance.

    Following from above, religion has put God as a singular, to control us. Notice how christian don't even worship "God" anymore, they worship this man named Jesus. Which is not his actual name.

    What I find really interesting is all the legitimate ancient cultures beyond Egypt said their gods came from the heavens, there reference to heavens was simply that outside of our atmosphere, the cosmos. Sumerian tablets state specifically that their gods come from another planet. Notice the term 'gods' instead of the "one almighty God". This shows they looked up to beings that were way more advanced than them so as a status thing they called them gods and goddess. Those came before our religions, or should I say our religions manipulated the factual stories into ones which sound mythical to keep modern man from mixing it with his logic.

    Just do some research on:
    Sumerians, Sumerian Tablets
    Mesopotamia
    Ancient Egypt
    Mayan Civilization- not the theories but research on their actual material.

    Very interesting stuff you'll find such as:
    [​IMG]

    Notice their considerably larger "god" is giving them agricultural tools, mathematics, knowledge of the solar system. Also notice how the people are in their "god's" image. They were the first culture to develop mathematics (we still use their systems today) and they had advanced knowledge of astronomy. This is 6000 b.c.

    Also, notice the religious paintings related to Chrisitiany, they don't show you the ones with advanced craft in the background do they?

    However, the bible does have half decent philosophies in there so it isn't a complete negative.
     
  5. darkone

    darkone Moderator

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    I love it when a fellow aethiest knows the bible well and can talk right back at a religious zealot with his own ammo.

    Personally, I don't care what someones religion is, I don't care what they believe in. It isn't my place to try and convert that person, and I sure as hell hate it when someone tries to convert me. I can date people of religion, I have. I can have religious friends, I do.

    This man is no better then the religious zealots he is condemning, he is forcing his beliefs on people. Which in itself is MORALLY WRONG. You shouldn't force any beliefs on anyone. If you want to teach them about it, if they ask, that is fine, they are asking. You shouldn't just tell people the way things are gonna be. When you do that, you are basically assuming the role of the slave master, and forcing the people you are trying to convert to do what you want them to do. The whole thing is a paradox.
     
  6. Fenix

    Fenix Moderator

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    Why do people always bring religion into a discussion on morality?

    Anyways.

    The real question is, is morality built into us? Is it a tangible force, such as hunger, or the need to reproduce, or is it something ingrained into us by our experiences, our upbringing?

    I'm partial to the latter.

    Morality is completely based on perspective. Take honor killings for an example. In many old-world religions, it's considered ethical to murder, in cold blood often, someone who has committed a serious dishonor. That person is either expected and pressured to off him or herself, or, failing that, a family member often performs the deed. However, shift gears to Western civilization. Over here, we struggle with the supposed morality of killing hardened murderers and rapists. As you can see, it's merely based on where you are and how you were raised.



    First off, you assume A LOT in this argument. But let's play along.

    God, by definition is perfect. A god is not perfect, but a monotheist God is.

    Semantics aside now.

    Yes, God supposedly created a system where we were going to screw up no matter what. But, if you read into it, that's the entire point of the system. You cannot improve in any way unless you make mistakes. No one is perfect right off the bat, and you shouldn't be. There would be no learning, no experimentation, nothing if we were able to make it through unscathed. The point of life is to make mistakes, get dirty, to quote Ms. Frizzle.

    This is where you assumption comes in. There's three, maybe for Christian religions that say you'll burn in hell. These are what's called 'orthodox.' They follow the Bible to the letter. Most Christian religions (Mine included) do not do this however. These are often called reformist Christians or in some cases Neochristian. Basically, they believe that many points of the Bible were metaphorical or mistranslated.


    Also, just something to chew on....

    If a God or gods exist, morality is arbitrary.
     
  7. Babmer

    Babmer Guest

    My point exactly!
    I suppose i should elaborate on the God i was talking about. The orthodox one.
    If the entire point of the system is to screw up and end in hell then what does that tell you about his morals?

    Its very simple really.

    Their inferiour to the majority of mankinds.

    I agree it is wrong to force beliefs. But the whole point of the show is religious people call in, ask a question, and he anwsers it
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2009
  8. overmind

    overmind Active Member

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    Psi, i find it very odd that you go on about the evils of religion and the 'worshipping of science' while preaching your, frankly religious views.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2009
  9. Psionicz

    Psionicz New Member

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    Countless times you judge me. I am not the specimen for analysis here. I'm presenting information relative to the topic, how about you actually tell me what is wrong with it instead of judging me?

    Now, you have made a claim. Elaborate it, back it up so it actually has meaning and isn't a vague opinion you decided to release.

    As a FYI, I am trying to put what you'd judge as "religious" as actual data, nothing mythical and vague. Hence putting the terms correct. Example: They label their 'gods' as such to show their superiority in status, stating they're intelligent beings from another solar system. Instead of saying: A god appeared from heaven bearing a staff that magically healed people and brought crop to the lands, when in fact it could have been a big alien with a plow who uses a flying technology.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2009
  10. EonMaster

    EonMaster Eeveelution Master

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    Because for the majority of people, thier morals are based off thier religion.

    For my morals, I just try to be nice to people and not cause harm to others. I don't really care what type of religion someone has, if they're a nice person, I'll be nice in return.

    I don't think any 1 religion is 100% correct anyway, so blindly following one and telling other people they'll go to hell for not thinking the same way is really idiotic imo.
     
  11. Fenix

    Fenix Moderator

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    I could be wrong, but I explained it quite concisely. Lemme try an analogy.

    Ok, say your kid has problems in school. Would it be morally right to do all his work for him, just so he gets a good grade and passes? Or would it be ethical to let him fail and let him learn from his mistakes to do better next time?
     
  12. overmind

    overmind Active Member

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    *took a while to realize fenix killed the pie*

    I'm sorry psi, i saw your post in some weird light the first time over, heat+tiredness+limited time=reading posts wrong (apparently).I apologize.
     
  13. Babmer

    Babmer Guest

    In the sense of your analogy it would be ethical to let him fail and learn from his mistakes for next time.

    However you're missing the point. There is no ->next time<- in said religion. You're born you dont accept jesus christ as your saviour. So you spend an ETERNITY in hell.

    This is morally wrong. Im sure you can see many different ways someone could not accept jesus christ but still be a good, nice, person. Do they still deserve to spend an eternity in hell for not accepting jesus christ?

    No they dont, and to support a god who believes such and who's morals are so warped is just another example of the blindfolding that some religions do over their followers. Deep down many of you know that its morally wrong, but you still convince yourselves that he loves us?

    Do i deserve to go to hell? :<
     
  14. Fenix

    Fenix Moderator

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    I didn't mean as broad of a perspective as you thought I did.

    I meant screw up as in break the Commandments, not die after a bad life.

    In every Christian religion, if you feel bad about breaking the rules, you can repent and God will forgive you.


    And again, you're just talking orthodox. In my religion, you will only go to Hell if you're a horrid person, ie rape and pillage and know that it's horrible.
     
  15. EonMaster

    EonMaster Eeveelution Master

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    However, many people in each religion state that if you don't follow thier religion, you'll go to hell no matter how good you are as a person, which is completely rediculous.

    If not, then the entire population is going to hell :)
     
  16. Babmer

    Babmer Guest

    You're religion sounds pretty reasonable compared to the rest :eek:.

    And, i do agree, in a sense that is. Althought i would still say his morals are inferiour for all the other evil things he advocates/does in the bible.

    This, frankly only applies to certain religions tho. (Christianity - as in main stream american belief in the bible is one)

    And yes, Eonmaster is correct. I am going to hell cause im not following quite a few religions xD.

    That includes Catholic, Kurai!! do i deserve to go to hell? You advocate that i do deserve to go to hell by following it!!
    I frankly dont understand why people agree to worship a god who will send good honest people like me to hell to suffer for eternity...

    Could you comment on this? Or any other catholics perhaps?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2009
  17. Fenix

    Fenix Moderator

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    Reasonable? Dude, I'm a Mormon.

    He never advocates ANYTHING evil. Name one instance where the end result is evil.

    And Mormonism is Christian....
     
  18. Babmer

    Babmer Guest

    You didnt watch the videos :D.

    I think it was God rewarding for a human sacrifice. That was one. Cant remember the rest ;o.

    But seriously, watch the videos i posted
     
  19. Fenix

    Fenix Moderator

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    I tend not to go more than 30 seconds into a bash vid, as most 'atheist' ones tend to be.

    God never rewarded human sacrifice, you're looking at the wrong belief system. Try polytheism.
     
  20. Babmer

    Babmer Guest

    Well he advocates slavery.

    So he is morally inferiour:

    Here are ten passages from the Bible that clearly demonstrate God's position on slavery:

    Genesis chapter 17, verse 12:

    And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised.

    In this passage God understands that people buy other people and, quite obviously, is comfortable with the concept. God wants slaves circumcised in the same way as non-slaves.
    Exodus chapter 12 verse 43:

    The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "These are the regulations for the Passover: No foreigner is to eat of it. Any slave you have bought may eat of it after you have circumcised him, but a temporary resident and a hired worker may not eat of it.

    God again shows that he is completely comfortable with the concept of slavery and singles out slaves for special treatment.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1:

    Now these are the ordinances which you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

    Here God describes how to become a slave for life, and shows that it is completely acceptable to separate slaves from their families. God also shows that he completely endorses the branding of slaves through mutilation.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20:

    If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

    Not only does God condone slavery, but he is also completely comfortable with the concept of beating your slaves, as long as you don't kill them.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 32:

    If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull must be stoned.

    Not only does God condone slavery, but here God places a value on slaves -- 30 shekels of silver. Note that God is not sophisticated enough to understand the concept of inflation. It is now 3,000 years later, and a gored slave is still worth 30 shekels of silver according to God's word.
    Leviticus Chapter 22, verse 10:

    No one outside a priest's family may eat the sacred offering, nor may the guest of a priest or his hired worker eat it. But if a priest buys a slave with money, or if a slave is born in his household, that slave may eat his food.

    Here God shows that the children of slaves are slaves themselves, and that he is completely happy with that concept.
    Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44:

    Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Here God states where you may purchase your slaves, and clearly specifies that slaves are property to be bought, sold and handed down.
    Luke, Chapter 7, verse 2:

    Now a centurion had a slave who was dear to him, who was sick and at the point of death. When he heard of Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave. And when they came to Jesus, they besought him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he built us our synagogue." And Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, "Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and let my servant be healed. For I am a man set under authority, with soldiers under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come,' and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard this he marveled at him, and turned and said to the multitude that followed him, "I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith." And when those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the slave well.

    Here Jesus shows that he is completely comfortable with the concept of slavery. Jesus heals the slave without any thought of freeing the slave or admonishing the slave's owner.
    Colossians, chapter 3, verse 22:

    Doesnt advocate evil acts! whatya talkin about!
    If you follow this god, then you advocate slavery.

    Seriously, if you dont know half of what your holy book says then why do you even bother aruging your religion!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2009