No choke point defenses - what it means for the terran.

The nerf of choke point defenses is a direct nerf on the terran race. The only defense terrans had in starcraft 1 were bunkers, which required unit supply to fill.

Keep in mind, while there is no supply cap, supplies still must be constructed (as far as we know)

This means that the terran will need a defensive building that does not require supply to fill. At least that's my prediction.

 

can someone explain choke point defenses to me? i under stand the two terms separately, and i think i have an idea of what it is, but the way people refer to it makes me think otherwise

 

suppose theres only 1 access to you base.. aka you are on a cliff and theres only 1 place to go to ur base.. this place is ur choke point... and i guess it's a good idea to set defense there... like everyone do in SC1..

that's what it means.

 

Can someone explain to me why we are discussing this like it is a fact while we don't know shit about the Terran army ;D

 

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Choke point defense is gathering units around a choke point, and forcing the opponent to have to run down it. because they have to close the distance, and because they HAVE to come through this one spot, you can effectivly block off your enemys main path for a ground assault.

For my diagram, X=siege tank o=bunker and ^=missile turret

What i think this means for terran: this is a less than crucial change in strategy. because the majority f units look like they will have to operate like they did in SC1, theres still quite a lot that can be done like this. i know that were still months away from a confirmation, but the way it looks is that there will be 1-2 units per race that can hop over cliffs. since I've ever seen anyone use 1 unit type assaults past the first 5-6 minutes, this is still an effective strategy.

Now what the new units do mean is that that choke point defense might need more attention than before. ive set up 15 siege tanks, 10 missile turrets and a few bunkers, and not paid attention to that spot all game. Nothing could reach this location. But with the new system a colossus can get up on the walls, and start pouring fire on my tanks. The advantage i had is now gone. But we still don't know about the zerg anyway. Maybe they will still have some of the flaws they faced in SC that the other races had, like cloaking. theres a possibility that the zerg will stand there and be forced to run down your path.

One other thing strikes me, that is the effectiveness of a choke against the newer more nimble units. The soul hunters seem to be able to keep pace with the vulture, and this may lead to units rushing in and stomping out your D-lines. This is still not known though, and im not worried too much. But if the terrans get a fast high damage unit that can close distance quickly, these lines will meet a lot of trouble. You may now be forced to watch them, keep SCV's near them, and monitor their progress, while reinforcing them and replacing lost units. While this is common maintenance, these aren't supposed to operate as bases (or base defenses) , and should be left to work alone. Since we now have to pay attention to the unit, there is going to have to be more spread out microing.

 

because i just wrote a page and a half on a possibility.


besides, we know there are bunkers, siege tanks, marines and missile turrets. use anything else in your choke defense?

edit, sorry for the double post, 2 people replied when i was typing that monstrosity.

 

we do know quite a bit about the terrans, not as much as the toss but we do know that they will be good expansion raiders and that no matter what happes someone will find out how to set up chokepoint defences.

 

ohhh ok... i know what a choke point is just not how they were supposedly nerfing it

 

Usually at a choke point, a terran player would contruct 2 bunkers and fill it with marines and firebats. And several siege tanks behind/next to the bunkers in siege mode. Plus some missile turrets around for air defense. The fact that SCVs can repair siege tanks and bunkers, and medics can heal marines mean that this defense is a lot durable than a sea of photon cannons or sunken colonys.

Now the massive range and power of siege tanks means most enemy ground units charging into the base through a choke point will die before it can even reach to attack the bunkers. Hence the Terrans rely a lot on choke points.

What Meloku pointed out is that if there is no choke point. The terrans will need a lot of marines in bunkers and a lot of siege tanks spreaded over a large area surrounding the base. And it takes up the supply limit. I personally think choke point will be featured constantly in SC2. Beside I wouldn't mind if there is no choke point since Terran is my least favourite

 

where did they say there would be less choke points?

 

The type of strategies we've seen used so far (warp in w/ the phase prism, collosus/reapers flying over cliffs, nydus worms) seem to suggest that any portion of your base is vulnerable to a ground attack. This means that putting all of your defense in one place is no longer a viable strategy (it never really was to be honest). But this has made me come to the conclusion that starcraft will be more about army v army instead of army v base.

 

This topic brings up an interesting point. Perhaps all races will have the ability to retreat to their bases (similar to WCIII Town Portal scrolls, but without items :X) in order to make moving defenses more feasible.
It would really suck if you started an attack, only to find that your enemy had a force waiting right outside your base with a nydus worm, and they just crush you because you can't get back in time. Especially with bigger maps.

 

You know that movie 300? They were guarding a choke point.

...I am sure choke points will continue to be viable. You'll notice that there were units in the original game that could ignore terrain barriers all together (we refer to them as "air units") and yet choke points were critical to defense. StarCraft II will have more units that can avoid barriers, but there is still a large proportion that can't. You use choke points to nail those units, and inner-defenses to handle the ones that go around them. It's just like the first game, except there is now a grey area between the types of defenses you will need.

 

A Terran player can line their bases borders with missile turrets, that's what I usually do on a money map. I usually play the big game hunter and I would line the water-edge of my base with photon cannons or spore colonies or missile turrets. It works for at least 30 mins into the game, until my enemies totally mass-out on air units, or if they get guardians, BCs, carriers. But since most of the time, especially in campaigns, it won't be money maps, so I guess lining up the base's edge with static defense is not a viable idea.

What that means is that it'll out even more microing and multiskilling pressure on a terran player. Instead of just relying on siege tanks to incinerate any imcoming enemy units, they'll have to move their units around to avoid a surprise attack from a quite corner of the base. But if you think about it, the Protoss and Zerg player would also face similar problems. I mean massing photon cannon or sunken colonies is not that effective at fending off massive waves of zealots, hydralisks. So they would also have to have units all over their base for defense.

 

can colossus and reapers go through water? like in fastest possible map, there are islands with choke point deffense. can a colossus or reaper go through the negative space between each one?

 

ummm.... there is going to be a supply limit. I n an interview about 8 days ago a guy from blizzard mentioned it would probably be 200. What there isn't a limit on is unit selection. You could have an army of 200 if you want. =P

 

imagine trying to order a full scale assault with that. half would die trying to get in the base, by then it would be even match, then enemy comes in with siege and air and pwns your ass. you can even have 400 lings? i don't think so

 

when did they say that choke points will be nerfed?

 

Choke points will remain in starcraft 2. It's just that it'll be featured less frequently in campaigns and in Blizzard made maps. And also with all those new units like phase prism and nydus worm means bypassing a choke point is easier, so a player can't just concentrate all his defenses on a choke but instead have to cover a large area of their base.