Hey all, first time poster on this forum as well as a new Starcraft Player. I've always been a gamer, but mostly RPG's. I was a "hardcore" WoW raider until my fiance made me quit . So in the wake of that, I picked up SCII. So adjusting from RPG's to RTS has been a bit of a learning curve to say the least. I've understood that the opening few moves you make is essential to succeeding at SCII, but I can't seem to get it right. I'm using the build linked at the top of every page: http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/view.php?pg=article-aterransguide. Here is a replay of a game I played, and I was wondering if I could get some input on the opening of it (note: I did surrender a little while in, but just critique the opening bit, that's my focus atm): http://www.filedropper.com/myopeninggame Any help you all could provide would be awesome.
ey what up man. RPG to RTS will be a huge learning curve, since there is no relation at all. RPG just takes time. RTS takes skill, time, and intelligence, haha. As for terran, make sure you keep producing SCVs. Generally, when you are producing your 10th SCV, build a Supply Depot. When you complete SD, make a barrack. After that it will depend on your opponents. For example, If your opponent TECHS, you rush. If your opponent masses, you get ready for a counter. You just have to play lots of games to learn. Good luck
yeah as for terran... im not the best player around but i know that you should build a suply depot when you have 9 scvs and your about half way to build your 10'th scv... and then you build your barracks when you have 11 or 12 scvs (and one scv allready being build)... i dont honestly remember xD just make sure to keep producing scvs in the early stage of the game
I've recently done the same jump from RPG to RTS and been having similar problems, though it is a little easier for me since I used to be an RTS player many years ago... Anyway, give a read through these posts and the links provided: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104910 and http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/showpost.php?p=393339&postcount=3 And imo you should quit using build orders for the time being, they can only get confusing and if you don't have your basic mechanics set in stone then they not only don't work but are bad too. Also, rally point your workers straight to the minerals since they're losing time waiting for you to send them yourself. Build orders are not good at all to learn the game, they'll only confuse a new player. Get your basics ready and work on understanding the mechanics of the game. It's like learning an opening in chess when not knowing how all the pieces move yet, what will you do after that, and how will you know when you lose if it was your opening that wasn't good or something else that's to work on? Same thing here... Check out these 2 links and the links within the second one, and I think they'll help you a lot.
Thanks so much for all of the help. I'll give those posts a look over after Black Friday shopping Edit: Are you kidding me, this first video is an hour and forty minutes Edit 2: These guides were awesome! The Daily 9 Noob series was really helpful in drilling through my head that its important to continually make units all the time (see, I never knew that...BIG noob apparently) My biggest problem now it seems is that I'm not executing moves quickly enough. My first marine often comes a full minute behind the first combat unit of my opponent. I don't know if that's from poor managing, or if it comes from me just being slow. My units are progressively farther behind that of my opponent, and as we all know, this is a bad thing. Hm...I guess I'll just keep on practicing until I can get the basics down. Edit 3: Still trying to figure stuff out. I'm finally getting the hand of hot keys and using them regularly in this game, but no matter how quickly I guess a base up and running, I fail at knowing when to attack. There are times I KNOW I have the lead in terms of army strength but I just wait and still lose. Is there any way of knowing when to attack? Here is a replay of a match where I believe this is the case: http://www.filedropper.com/massandfail and also
Definitely hot key your command centre and barracks. I like using "1" as my cc, I know alot of people prefer keys, 3, 4, or 5...but whatever. Anyways, as soon as you have 50 minerals you should be hitting "1, s" and repeat until it becomes habit. You should ALWAYS be building SCVs. My basic terran build order is... 10 supply 11 barracks 12 refinery For the most part, make sure you block off your ramp. If you decide to one base it in the beginning, I would suggest temporarily using your barracks to block your ramp at the beginning, and once 1 marine is out, lift the barracks out, and build a bunker where the barracks was, and keep a scv on patrol and auto repair near the bunker. If he starts attacking, the 1 scv will stall the attack enough for you to gather some more scvs to repair the bunker being damaged. Scout! Scout! Scout! Ex. If early in the game, you catch a zerg expanding (ex. 14 Hatch expansion) you can double barracks him, then with 6+ marines and 8 scvs you attack him...with some practice, you should never lose to a zerg who early expands. Also, don't worry so much about army size. A proper positioned bunker with 2 marines and proper repair can take on any early attack. Just smile as he loses units.
I don't agree with scouting and build orders as stuff a starter needs to know at all. It feels like some guy asks in chess "Nice game, will you teach me how to move the pieces to start learning?" and the reply being "Always start with a siscelian defence and your reply to napoleontean oppening should be this" and he should reasonably be confused after that since he doesn't know how to move the pieces. The basics of starcraft go beyond knowing what each unit does, and so, a new player must train on other stuff first before moving to the more advanced ones. You can easily go up to gold without ever scouting at all, by just having a solid build, but no matter how well you scout if you're unable to process the information you get in a way to help you then it only acts as a distraction that takes your attention off your base and keeps your macro back. If you forget making workers then you might feel that you're following a build order correctly, just because you build what you have to when the number hits that number. Build orders are the product of distilled experience. For example: as a protoss you try to keep probe production on. You can not build any buildings unless you build a pylon and you cannot build more than 10 workers from your first nexus. So you come to this problem : When is the best time to build my pylon? With trial and error you find that -Building the pylon when the 8th worker is in production will halt your worker production due to lack of minerals, and your pylon will be completed too early both because you'll have surplus supply when it's done and you won't have enough money to build a structure. So this concludes that building a pylon at "8" is somewhat too early and not so efficient. -Building a pylon when the 10th worker is in production or complete easily leads to the conclusion that that was a late-built pylon since it halts worker production for the whole pylon-build-time while stockpiling minerals which you cannot use fast enough. So you conclude that building a pylon at "10" is too late. The 2 above lead to the conclusion that the most effective timing to build a pylon is when you get 100 minerals right after you start your 9th probe's constuction. In effect what does a build order tell you? It tells you that building a specific unit at a specific supply count while keeping up worker production will let you have just enough minerals to build the next thing in line at exactly the timing you need. If you build geyser 1 at "x" supply and 2 at "y" supply and put workers in gas as soon as it's up, then by the time you hit "z" supply, provided that you made "a" "b" and "c" combat units, you will have exactly the minerals and gas needed for the tech building you need. Is all this really required to play starcraft relatively well? No, it's only good when you have obtained the ability to multi-task well enough to keep your macro up and running, the ability to adapt to scouting and change your build and the ability to have a relatively solid build with some rough edges to smooth. Training for the other stuff will get you victories and without even using build orders at all you can reach even diamond and high ranks in it. Scouting on the other hand: You can make do up to even platinum without much of it, but it helps a great way in 2 ways: i) By scouting you learn how to multi-task better... Even at bronze league if you keep scouting with a worker and traiing your hands to check the base without even looking back, then you're on a very good way to be a good player. even if the information you get is useless since you'll just stick to your build anyway, the act of training your mind to focus attention on multiple stuff will be a very very valuable asset to playing starcraft well. ii)Intel: After you learn to adapt your builds, information gained from scouting is what will win you most matches by making you able to reply well to enemy builds and even predict their next move and force them to adapt and change it or perish. But that only begins to show at higher levels of play I think, and is not required at low levels. In conclusion: For a low level player that needs to learn, work on your basics, don't bother at all with build orders and do your best to practice scouting not for the info gained, but for the multi-tasking practice it will give you. Keep a good macro, a solid strategy with at least early and mid game plans, and the rest will come with experience...
Alot of what the poster above is saying is right. Build orders are a product of experience...even the build order I gave before, I only do once every 3 or so games, the rest depends on map, race, etc. But the OP did ask about beginning plays, and for me that is the first 5-7 minutes of a game. Honestly, the best way to get better is to have a friend play you, and tell him to pressure early, if he's a good player and varies his strategy, you'll naturally improve as well.
My opening for Terran goes 9supply then gas then racks 1 marine tech lab stim while always making scvs
Builds, this is more of a concept used to help less experienced or new players understand the mechanics and counters of a game or strategy. The concept of builds melt away once your good enough to be constantly scouting and adapting every second.
See here's my biggest concern as a noob: everyone tells me to "learn the basics" and I'll be a huge step to getting better. But what are these basics? If I just learned what "the basics" are, then I could find the info and learn it. Edit: I get the basic ideas of: Never stop making workers Hotkeys, hotkeys, hotkeys Don't let your money pile up Pick 2-3 units and make lots of them Get upgrades for said units Am I missing any "essentials?"
I'll try to break them down for you a little bit: 1) Your first basic is your economy: That splits in 2 areas: Earning and Spending. The earning part consists of the constant creation of workers to increase your income(unless you reach an absurd amount like 100, just keep making them). The second part is the toughest to do: You have to keep making things that you need. When you queue up units you pay resources that are not used right now, so queuing is wasteful spending of money. As your income increases(since you keep making workers) the money starts piling up, and having money unspent is a waste. So you generally need to try to keep finding ways to spend that money, be it upgrades, production buildings, expansions or an army. Also, when your worker count gets high mineral lines become saturated(you get no more gain from extra workers: you need 3 workers per mineral patch and 3 workers per geyser, a total of 30 for a blue explo+geisers or 24 for a gold expo since it only has 6 patches) and you have both workers idling around but also your mineral patches are eaten away fast. So when you reach nearly 25-30 workers you should consider expanding. When your income is so high that you cannot spend it, just add more production buildings. They're cheap and you can use them to replenish your lost forces faster. If you can queue 5 marines in the barracks, remove 4 from the queue and build another barracks and start building units from that one too. 2)Using what you have: Paying money to build a building or train a unit that you don't need is generally wasted money. You need to keep spending your money and doing so in stuff you intend to use, and keep using them to spend more money. That way you get to keep your money low. Also an army standing around is generally not a good idea. But there are only 3 things to spend money on: Tech, Economy and Army. Economy is limited by your worker production plus one expo every now and then, tech is meant to provide more powerful army and if you don't get to having the army is useless and so the only thing you get to drain your money on is an army. So since you have it you have to start using it for attacking which leads us to : 3)Staying offensive: keeping the enemy threatened is a good way to gaining control. Since the resources in a single base are limited and you can only build so much with them, you'll eventually have to expand. Being aggressive lets you take expansions faster, and keep them safe through the enemy's fear to attack them. That way you can secure an economic lead and win the game. To do these you need some multi-tasking skills, which can be trained by use of hotkeys and practice. hotkey everything you use regularly(army/command center/production buildings) and keep scanning through to check on their conditions. When a building isn't producing pop a unit in the queue, when your scout is idle, get him to move a bit and get some more info, etc. Training to produce army/workers while your cam is at your army is a good way to get used to hotkeys, try to do that in all matches. Then there's other stuff, but tbh, I'm getting very very sleepy and my brain shutting down for quite some time already, so I'll move into a summary... In short: 1)Keep making workers and be aware for need for expansion 2)Keep your money low 3)Don't queue further than 2(1 unit building 1 waiting to be built) 4)Don't get supply blocked(If you do, money will pile up and give you a false feeling that you earn more than you can spend which may be inaccurate and lead you to building buildings you can't use) 5)Spend excess money in upgrades 6)Make an army and use it to harass or contain your enemy in his base 7)Have an army composition that is good against what your opponent has(i.e: don't go mass marauders against carriers: scout instead) Watch day9's video on the fundamentals here if you haven't already: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3732340/ You may wish to try playing some custom games vs ai just to get used to keeping your build tight(that is, not forgetting stuff and letting money pile up or workers not being made) till you get comfortable. There's also an awsome(but very hard) map from teamliquid to train on your multitasking when performing all of the above. Here's the link to the thread about it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124983. It's very useful for all levels of play and very hard to beat and provides a good challenge and trainer for all players. Aw, and right! I just remembered: Buddhist(many will know him from being a kickass rogue in wow) has turned to starcraft, and made a very nice website with a friend of his which they update every when they feel like. Despite the update frequency they have some high quality articles, including an awsome guide to the game. Take a thorough read of this: http://craftingstars.com/main/?q=node/38(all chapters of it not just the first page, lol ) Aw, and the most important things: -Keep calm -Use your losses to learn and improve -Play for fun and enjoyment Good luck and good night, I'm gonna crash cause liminf of my sleepyness equals infinity. Good night and sorry for the mathematical joke
Stirlitz I think that was perhaps the most beneficial post I've read lately. Thanks for summarizing that up. And yeah, I've found that video from DayNine. His videos are awesome (I love Noobie Tuesdays). Thanks much everyone! I've been winning more recently (up to 7 wins now lol) and I'm employing more tactics than ever. Thanks again!
the essentials are 1 and 3 everything else helps you achieve this goal, the number of units depends on your play style but for now just build as much stuff as you can ( of whatever you want ) expand when you can ( when you attack). then after once you find some stuff you like work with it and build a strat.
A little addition on the build order topic: I just watched a video from Force Strategy showing a bronze level guy playing, and while focusing on his scout probe he neglected worker production, but he seemed like he was following a specific build order, and it swayed him very off-balance with some negative results like piling up money he was unable to spend. Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC8bxO1okIk I find such videos quite useful and strong examples of how liquid things are with starcraft and how many times the thing that's theoretically the right thing to do can end up being wrong given certain circumstances and that there's generally few things that are absolute in this game. This is of course an extreme example, but extreme examples are often very educational. And to give a contrast to this opinion, take WoW(for those who played it) for example: There is less flexibility of choices there. Whatever your playstyle is equipping item X over Y will increase your dps since it's stats are better for your class, so you can say something like "Aim to get items A, B and C" and that will be correct since under all circumstances those will benefit you regardless of how things turn. The same items will provide a benefit on both the player that makes mistakes and the player that plays correctly. In starcraft this isn't the case at all, and I'm glad it is so Just had this thought and thought I'd add it to this thread...
I think that is my problem. Coming from a "max/min" perspective, the liquidity of Starcraft is throwing me off. Good analogy. I'm glad I read that.
if you want we can play a game and i can take a look at replays and give advise. because for most new players they look at the counter lits and go so if this beats that i should get that but if he gets this i should get that and so on, and in the end you have an army which has every unit in the game in it but it cant kill anything because its to small. also expansion for me were always a key issue when i was a newer player ( back in sc1 and even wc3) try 2 baseing its generally easy and is good for terran then get a whole bucnh of whatever unit you want if you want 200 food of tanks thats cool cause at your level haveing more stuff than that other guy is actually the best strat, and then when you lose with it you can adjust to compensate for the failures of said build. im US 983 Toochaos i watched the replay, and there were two main issues with you play one tactical the other macro. at 7 min into game you had 2000 mins this is alot of minerals, this means you need to build more barracks. the second mistake you made twice is in the use of tanks they are very slow moving things they siege then leapfrong once your close to their base. also never go near the clif of a base like you did when you lost everything twice. skirt the edge it takes longer but is safer. in short spend your monies. also here is my latest game in which i have no monies, im toss rather than terran but the idea is the same. ( its in the next post cause you cant edit in attachs it seems)
