October Revolution Day!

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Light, Nov 7, 2008.

October Revolution Day!

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Light, Nov 7, 2008.

  1. Light

    Light Guest

    I don't feel like making a big post of obvious, so:

    ''We have beaten you to the moon, but you have beaten us in sausage making''
    - Nikita Kruschev, Soviet leader

    7 Nov. 2007
    More Communism!
    Join the Party!
     
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  2. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Yay Communism?
     
  3. Lombar

    Lombar New Member

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    you suck!
    viva capitalism
     
  4. Light

    Light Guest

    no u suck!11

    And say that when you're living under a tree asking for coins for a coffee
     
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  5. KuraiKozo

    KuraiKozo New Member

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    Uranus lol =D
    yay communism~
    psshaaawww, Lomba, bet you don't even know what capitalism is foo.
     
  6. Light

    Light Guest

    Serious discussions/questions only >: (
     
  7. KuraiKozo

    KuraiKozo New Member

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    Uranus lol =D
    it's november, is that important? xD
    not october...x3
     
  8. Light

    Light Guest

    They used a different calender back then in Russia

    NEXT~
     
  9. KuraiKozo

    KuraiKozo New Member

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    Uranus lol =D
    GM, what exactly did they do? Like, I'm none too educate don Russia, they don't teach about it here >.>''
     
  10. Light

    Light Guest

    This celebrates the second phase of the revolution, the first was the removal of the tsar, and this one the removal of the provisional government which was put up after the tsar abdicated. Then the revolutionaries set up the communist Soviet power.
     
  11. Fenix

    Fenix Moderator

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    I always thought it was czar.


    Anyways. Technically, communism or at least socialism is the peak theoretical form of government, but human greed makes it impossible.
     
  12. Light

    Light Guest

    tsar/czar, considering I know russian XP

    Fenix, Im not drawing any cute pictures of utopia here-- marxism is a very realistic and materialistic world view. We need to focus on what is happening right now. ''communism doesnt work'' and ''human greed makes communism impossible'' are just words without any backing at all, besides being completely unrelated, made into stable responses because of their popularity, with the fact that no one questions these things. The soviet union and any other constitutionally socialist state certainly had great success in removing greed---its the opposite of capitalism/fascism, remember?? Not to mention the society we live in right now is defined purely by greed anyway.
     
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  13. ItzaHexGor

    ItzaHexGor Active Member

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    Da, tovarich!

    [​IMG]
     
  14. 11-Sodium

    11-Sodium New Member

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    The problem with the economic theory of pure socialism as it applies to human greed...

    Let's consider a simple case where there are 2 groups of people: group A is composed entirely of hard working, industrious people; group B is composed entirely of those too weak or lazy to work consistently. Groups A and B would receive equal benefit under pure socialism, but group A would be getting the short end of the deal.

    Human greed, if not tempered or removed, would result in individuals in group A considering the benefits of group B, namely the lower amount of work for nearly the same benefits. Individuals in group A who think this way will shift into group B, as they see only a marginal decrease in their benefits (the amount of work they did divided by the entire population) but a massive decrease in the amount of work required (working to not working or working less).

    This situation is unstable, as all members of A who think this way will choose to join B, and then there is a society of individuals who want benefits without work. The only way to rectify the situation is to force the individuals who are capable of working to work (slavery) or to reward those who do work (removal of pure socialism for something resembling capitalism).

    This is the reasoning as I always understood it. A similar argument works for laziness, which is also a problem. If one denies that laziness and greed are basic human traits, then socialism would be grand.

    @Light specifically: As far as "removing" greed... I am not exactly sure what you mean. Simply having a certain kind of economy does not guarantee that the population will change to remove greed. According to what I have read of Marx's theory, the government should become unnecessary after a shift to communism, but in every case the government grew in power. Whether this is power-lust or greed is (I think) a matter of semantics.

    Anyway, the Soviet Union is not example of a good economy, since a factor in the collapse of the Soviet Union was the economy. They had a centrally planned economy where the government owned businesses. There were crises in the agricultural sector of the economy because of dissatisfaction of some farmers with collectivization, and this resulted in serious food shortages and a lot of dead farmers. Later, since the central government had to make decisions on all aspects of the economy and the government was slow to decisions, the economy began to stagnate. The businesses being unable to adapt rapidly to change also meant that there were shortages of goods in some sectors while at the same time other sectors had overproduced, resulting in large stockpiles of unwanted goods. This might be less of a problem in cases where individuals or small groups are free to make business decisions independent of the central government.

    Perhaps a purely socialist economy would work, but it would have to be regulated at the town level as opposed to the state level, since the state can't accurately assess the information to make decisions quickly enough to keep the economy running. There would also need to be measures to make sure that the population continues working, which ties in with what I started this post about.

    Personally, I prefer capitalism, but I see the theoretical merits of socialism and communism.
     
  15. TNARICK

    TNARICK New Member

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    Yea I also thought it was czar
     
  16. Lombar

    Lombar New Member

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    Well I kinda agree with sodium and Fenix, although My point of view if somehow different.
    Put greed asides, I think Human is capitalist by nature, in the sense that it's always looking for power and a way to make clear I am better than you.
    This is not just my ideas of what humans are, this is the reallity, this is why ancient humans gathered into tribes, tribes with someone in charge, where everyone accepted this person's ideas as superior in importance to the rest.
    Money is the simbolization of power, although it is not the only thing that grants you power, it is one of the most important. People search for money as they search for power (in different levels, that is) and that is just the way or brain works.

    I think Capitalism grants advancement as well, not only scientific, but social. Think about this, one of the best ways to come up with lots and lots of money is a good idea. This idea might be the cure of a disease, a videogame, a new invention, or just a ripoff. In comunism this wouldnt happen, no one would be motivated to improve their social status since there is no social status.

    Comunism, is an stupid "utopia" if you could even call it that way, cause of the factors sodium mentioned before, which was, btw, really clear and easy to read, probably not like my arguments :p
    But oh well, that's the advantage you get by writing in your native language XD
     
  17. Light

    Light Guest

    Thats +1 for imaginary examples---seriously? Of course, everything you say it perfectly true. Its just stupid. And completely irrelevant.

    Partially, yes. Human behaviour is always affected by conditions and its these conditions which ultimately decide them. http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/socialism.htm Also derived from Marx.

    Wait wait, what?? So you mean achieving full industrialisation of a backward rural state in less than two decades and then withstanding a massive war including supporting a war economy and then building up the second largest economy in the world with full socialism and world leader in science and research, isnt an example of a good economy? And your capitalism is? Can it do that? no, never can and never will.

    a part. Since the main cause was the political instability and its mix with the economic situation. Which isnt surprising considering a massive multi-ethnic country like the USSR with all of its constituent republics and groups. The economic issues could have and would have been solved.

    True. Just dont forget the part before ''later'', which I already stated.

    And how's that?

    Capitalist by nature? Humans are born completely neutral, not filled with desire to start monopolies. Anything else would be attributed to society, and as I already put it to Sodium.

    Generalisation and is completely false in its case. Basic labour and society bring forth these things.

    Yes, tribes, and tribal society with its primitive form. But before tribes, it was ''primitive communism'' as stated by Marx. I think even archeological finds state such things =/

    Yup. Just like that. /Sarcasm

    :laugh: Capitalism and social advancement. Well, in the cases that it ****s things up so bad that a new form comes up after it. Otherwise :laugh:

    Yeah sure. Just that it has disasterous effects on everything else. And oh yeah, its not very social that way >.>

    Money doesnt cure diseases

    OMG is that a bad thing?? =O How the hell is that a bad thing?
     
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  18. kuvasz

    kuvasz Corrections Officer

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    It's nice seeing you reasoning and everything but at the end of the day it all boils down to one thing: if it works well, it will gain popularity. I don't see much socialism on Earth, do you?
     
  19. Itsmyship

    Itsmyship New Member

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    There's actually quite a bit Kuvasz, its just not automatically branded Socialism. The fact the universal health care is even thought to be an obligation of the government is Socialism. The bailout plan employed to keep banks from totally going to **** is Socialism. The fact that the major left-wing party in a large amount of nations is the Socialist Party is a sign that Socialism is around.

    Anything where people pay taxes to provide for the benefits of other people are social issues, which makes it a bit of Socialism.

    Here in America, we don't really have a right and a left wing party. We have a conservative party and a less conservative party. It's not like Serbia where the two big parties are the Communist Party and the Ultranationalist Party. Now THOSE are rleft and right wing parties.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2008
  20. MeisterX

    MeisterX Hyperion

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    I don't understand the "We beat you to the Moon" thing.