Thoughts on the marauder...no, seriously

So I......am less than impressed with the Marauder. The so-called Terran "super-infantry" were touted to be amazing and incredibly overpowered, but I've found them to be far less useful than the good ol' Marine.

Against zerg this is especially pronounced, because Zerg really only needs to close in with Zerglings and Banelings, and those units are usually very high in number anyway---unless you somehow have equal numbers of Marauders, the Concussive shells wouldn't really prove useful. Marauders are completely useless against anti-air, and are relatively gas intensive considering the two geysers you have access to in the early game.

I've been experimenting with replacing marauders with marines in TvZ, and just going for a massive Marine ball of about 30-40 marines, with +1 Weapons and Combat shield upgraded. Marines are incredibly versatile, smaller, and have insane dps output in large numbers. I'm not really sure if my success thus far has been because of dumb luck, or poor AI, or what...

The point of this long-winded post: What do you guys think? Is Marine Marauder worth it, or is a Marine Ball actually more effective? (I'm speaking specifically about TvZ, but I'd love to hear about how the Marauder has fared in your TvP and TvT games)

 

What ratio of Marines to Marauders are you using? 2:1 or 3:1 works just fine, allowing the Marines to put out a constant stream of damage while Marauders provide an extra kick against any armored units or buildings you may encounter. In virtually every situation (TvZ included) I'd research Stim Packs before anything else.

If you're having trouble with mass Zerglings/Banelings, the only advice I can give you is to tech faster. If you have a couple of Siege Tanks set up at your choke or tagging along with your M&M's then they shouldn't stand a chance.

 

from everything I've seen, I'm still trying to figure out as a Protoss player, how to counteract a MM ball. Lots of people say colossus, but then the terrans just throw in a couple vikings and that solves the colossus problem. I've tried immortals and colossus, but neither of them stand up to the MM ball, and toss in a ghost or two, since EMP doesn't have to be researched, but Psi storm does...

 

Marauders don't deal the right damage to deal with Zerglings/Banelings in large numbers, but they're good at taking damage so that your Marines don't have to. Against Roaches, Marauders are a must. (A modestly upgraded Roach force can kill a large Marine ball with zero casualties.)

A Marine ball will do more damage to Light units than a Marauder ball, but it will be worse against Armored units. More importantly, a Marine ball is much less capable of actually taking damage. There are tons of units that will shred a Marine ball in an embarrassingly cost-effective manner.

 

I don't think people appreciate how new this game is. There are tons of strategies that you've never heard of that will blow your mind that we'll see after release. The game is evolving. I think straight up marines is viable, even if they are squishy.

I've found that the trick to a good toss army is to get some of everything. Sentries are pretty good against air and stalker zealot armies are sturdy enough to let the colossus destroy them, and a couple immortals never hurt. I usually take out the ghosts with DTs if a have the tech already. Anyway the key to toss is variety.

 

Marine Range: 5
Roach Range: 3
It takes about 24 Marines to one-shot a Roach. And you could very well have that many if that's all you are making.

I don't know, maybe Marauders really aren't necessary in certain situations. Although if they get Banelings and all you have is 24 Marines you are screwed.

 

Keep in mind that this is strictly an early-game push, not a hey-I'm-almost-dead-lets-make-a-billion-marines late-game sort of thing (although I have done this once to some poor soul playing 1 base zerg...and won ><)

ANYway, at this point in the game, Zerg usually has at most +1 damage on Roaches, from what I've seen, whereas I push out with around 35 marines. By this time, combat shield is also upgraded, which I've found to be astronomically helpful if you think about it from strict mathematics: +10 health to each marine means in a ball of 35 marines, you have +350 health. That is an extra 350 damage that your enemy must deal in order to completely eliminate your army.

350 is a huge number. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but that's something like adding the health of three siege tanks to your marine army. (Edit: I lied, two siege tanks. Still though, damn!)

Also, +1 weapons are upgraded at this point too, which...well I'm biased, I've always loved the marine, but I feel like +1 is just completely insane. I've been able to come back from 1-base near-losses because of +3/+3 stim-packed marine balls before. They really are an underappreciated unit, imagine what it feels like to get wrecked by mass-void ray, and then run off with your CC, build 5 or 6 reactor-ed Rax, and mass 100 crack-rines, and destroy your opponent's base...feels good. feels good. Doesn't work outside of bronze league

Thanks for all the tips guys, I really appreciate it. And as for the Protoss player: I've found that the key to a toss beating my MM is to scout the build and push BEFORE the player amasses a ball of machine guns. The bigger the ball is, it gets exponentially more effective shredding anything it comes across, at least far more than a ball of say, zerglings or zealots, which cannot attack from behind their bretheren.

In other words, if you see that build, you're going to have to mass as many units as you can in a short amount of time (stop teching) and push with stalkers and zealots as soon as you can. I'm sure others will have different strategies, but from my experience, once the terran gets going (and god forbid he gets medivacs), then it's basically over.

 

Banelings are definitely a hard counter to this build. They're cute little buggers but they melt my marines...boo.

If I'm seeing no roach den and more than a few lings harassing my scout, then marine ball is definitely out of the question---time to down a bunker, a factory and depot or two to double my wall, and start teching toward tanks.

 

This is what scares me...

http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3752216/

This is Day[9], casting a few replays of Brat_OK, he actually has three different daily casts of Brat_OK, this is day one with I think three match replays. Daily 135, 136(2 parts) and 137(2 parts) all deal with Brat_OK and his slightly different terran play style.

 

I've seen all of those casts. Why does that scare you?

 

the reason you dont go all marines and no maurders is that after i baneling storm or collosus you it would be nice to have something left.wth the extanded range on collosi they can simply destroy marines before they get there. strom with the amulet means even with a ghost i can just make more that can storm instantly. the key thing is that you devesify so that you wont be wiped out by one thing. so not only do maruders have lots of health but can slow and kite very well, not to mention they have stim. all these things make them powerful not just the idea that they do damedge and can slow. hope that helps.

also watch day(9) daily 110 game one in dealing with a loss it shows effective use of baneling to crush marines, after using mutas to force the opponent to make marines (though it is not the focus of the game it is nice to see how it does work and thats one of the better examples)

 

When I talk about making marine balls, I'm speaking strictly of against TvZ---against Protoss, you'll need Marauders guaranteed because of their concussive shells and their powerful damage against armor and buildings.

Also, again, the original thing I was talking about before the discussion digressed was simply in the early game. Sure, you may have a collosi or two by the time I push out with 30 or 40 marines, but you try taking 30-40 marines against one or two collosi. This isn't really a build, per se, so much as it is an early game strategy. If the marine ball push doesn't end the game, it will still cause a lot of damage considering how early it is. The player then tech's to either medivacs or mech, depending on what structures he may have destroyed or scouted.

If I scan and see a baneling nest, I research stim and start switching to mech. If I see robotics (not even sure why i'd be using this against protoss), I start dropping starports for vikings. Either way, it's not about teching to marines or something.

What you said definitely was helpful though, it helps illustrate how fragile the build is to certain counters---namely, units like banelings, high templar, and collosi that deal a crapload of damage to small, massed units.

 

In case anyone was wondering, here's the build order I've been working on for the Marine Ball build:

9 Supply
11 Barracks
13 Refinery
15 Orbital Command // 2 Marines to defend choke
16 Supply
17 Engineering Bay // Reactor on Barracks
18 Barracks
20 Barracks
21 +1 Weapons
22 Supply (Hotkey this SCV, constantly make supply depots)
25 Tech Lab // Research Combat Shields
30 Reactor

Later Research: Stim Pack, +1 Armor

I stole the numbers off of Fallen's 3-rax build, but instead of building Marauders, I build marines. I usually push out either right after I repel Zerg's attempted ramp break, assuming I have 20+ marines, or when I have 35 marines, which is more or less enough to fill up an entire ramp. I wish I could show some replays, but try it for yourself! A ramp completely filled up with marines with +10 health each and +1 damage really does shred a lot of things. Against a Very Hard AI, I've wrecked 12+ Roaches before with a simple Attack-Move, leaving nearly two dozen marines to spare.

I've found that they key is to rush up the ramp, taking some hits while you fill up the ramp, and then Attack-Move in the direction of the attackers. All the marines on the ramp instantly start firing, and you keep on advancing and attack-moving, advancing and attack-moving. If your opponent just sends his units to attack you without microing, send more marines around the sides and they'll automatically form a crescent firing line. It's pretty sweet.

Edit: if anyone has ANY ideas at all, please feel free to throw them at me

 

by the time you can get all that out a protoss can have templars up, and do a good job of destroying alot of your force, the key to this is that you have forced your oppnent to make a very gas heavy build. folowing up with banshees would make a very effective stratergy, as a protoss i dont think i would be able to deal with that if i went hight temps, cept by making archons and with invis i would be done. if i went collosi a follow up of tanks or vikings would also be hard to take. although an easy way to stop this on one base is to attack first, or use forcefield at the ramp you only need 6 sents on most maps to do that forever while your anti units detroy marines who cant see up. (btw i have used that kind ofbuild against protoss i love cept i get a ghost and medivacs for a smaller ball but better composition)

 

It's kind of refreshing to see a marauder post that's not complaining about how strong they are. I've actually found the same thing you have...they have their place, but they definitely aren't OP. My only problem with a marine ball is how squishy they are. Like 4 banelings kills a huge pack of marines, and any amount of roaches can decimate a bunch of marines as well.

Marauders are a great meat shield for the little guys, but I definitely think you need to use them together most of the time.

 

Everything in moderation is key.

Too much of one unit and you leave yourself open for a hard-counter. A mix of mech/bio is a good strategy.

 

All I can say is, nerf these ****ers. They pick off freaking archons because of their shells... sure, make an upgrade that enables you to kill 1-3 retreating high tier units (or 4-6 zealots by kiting, etc.) for free for 50/50 from early game on...

Nerf them and maybe we'd actually see tanks and a bit of variety and imagination.

 

Well zerglings and phoenixes can also pick off lots of retreating units. Are they overpowered as well?

 

Lings are not ranged and do not slow down units to make your mob murder them. They can surround a few units but they die quickly since they're frail and melee - not comparable with the marauder.

Phoenices are higher up the tech tree and you need multiple units as well as energy to effectively pick off retreating units - these three things make them quite different than marauders.

Also note that you see way more marauders than phoenices or lings (when comparing invested resources). And I haven't even mentioned stim.

Pro games, even when cast, are actually becoming boring because of them.

 

So really you are complaining that a "really strong unit" can prevent escape. Yet there are plenty of ways to beat marauders.

Zerg: lots of lings or mutalisks, both of which you should be getting
Terran: marines and banshees
Protoss: immortals or air, if an MM push comes before then you can beat them with zealots and sentries