Warp-in causing balance issues ?

So after seeing almost all the proper gameplay videos of SC2 that u can find at the moment i have noticed that protoss have been victorious in allmost every single game.

Now theres nothing wrong with this except the fact that in one of the videos P vs Z , the protoss player was just turtling in his base ( main base + one expansion) while the zerg player had expanded to atleast two additional resource points . Normally this would lead to the protoss being over produced by the zerg, but with the help of warp-in the protoss player could get units much faster than normally so he managed to hold the line and eventually defeat the zerg.

So my concern here is that the protoss player basically overproduced the zerg player in units with the help of warp-in, since warp-in only takes 5 sec and it reduces unit production cooldown by 10 sec.

This in my oppinion defeats one of the most basic balance factors in SC : protoss has expensive units that take a long time to produce and the units are really strong compared to the other races, terran has units that are at a medium resource cost and they are often more versatile when compared to the units of other races, zerg has units that are very cheap and fast and they dont take long to produce when compared to other races.

However when warp-in comes in play , protoss can overcome the slow production of units since warp-in only takes 5 sec and reduces unit production cooldown by 10 sec. This in my oppinion is a major flaw when it comes to game balance.

Let's compare a few basic units of the three races to show the impact of warp-in on units production. (unit information is taken from http://sc2pod.com/news/ )

Marine : unit cost = 50 minerals unit build time = 20 sec hp/dmg = 45hp / 6 dmg

Zergling: unit cost = 50 minerals (2x) unit build time = 23 sec hp/dmg = 35hp / 5 dmg

Zealot: unit cost = 100 minerals unit build time = 33 sec hp/dmg = 150hp / 16 dmg

Here you see that each of the basic units are balanced to each other by using mineral cost , unit build time and hp/dmg as the basic unit production balancing.

But when you add the warp-in bonus to the zealots build time :

Zealot: units cost = 100 minerals unit build time = 23 sec hp/dmg = 150hp / 16 dmg

With the use of warp-in u can deploy a zealot anywhere on the map in range of pylon power ( including warp prism ) with a unit " cooldown " (same as build time except its after the unit has been warped-in ) that is the same as the zergling's unit build time .

Since warp gates can be built after you get the cybernetics core , it gives the protoss a huge early game advantage since they now can produce units at the same rate as the other races ( if the protoss player has the resources) eaven though their units are much stronger when it comes to hp/dmg.

My proposition would be that they remove the - 10 sec to unit build time. This would remove the balance issue with protoss units being produced faster than the shuld, but it would still include the ability to warp in protoss units anywhere on the map within pylon or warp prism power in just 5 seconds.

Cheers to anyone who actually had the patience to read the whole thing .

 

Do zealots really deal 18 damage stock?

As for the mechanic being imbalanced, when you compared the units you didn't take into account that there is no queue for warp gates, and AFAIK units don't automatically leave the building, but need to be ordered to warp in somewhere individually. This makes unit production more tedious, and has to be compensated for with a discount in production (or in this case, cooldown) time. As the game progresses, Protoss unit production will require more attention when handling multiple warp gates, so the effect of the discount will become less noticable.

Nice post though. Welcome to the forums, enjoy your stay.

 

Yeah my bad , zealots do 2x 8 damage in SC2.
I know that warp-in doesen't use production queues but if your macro and micro is good enough u can still use warp-in to gain an unfair production rate advantage when considering balance between the unit production of the three races. And u still have to consider the fact that the units can be warped in anywhere on the map where there is a pylon or a warp prism. But u got a really good point there with warp gates needing alot more work to use than normal gateways, and i must admit that i shuld have taken that in consideration.

 

Well lets see zerg now have the new nydus worms which can be made on any part of the battle field and also creep is much easier to spread out because of tumors and also the fact that overlords can make creep when they stay still so back door drops are actually easier for them and you also have to remember overlords no longer are able to transport units anymore.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see sunken raids where creep is moved near a bases and the zerg player pushes with them because of their ability to move around (same goes for the spores).

The warp gate function will be interesting to see it in full use it just gives the protoss players extra flexibility latter game.

One last thing the zerg I would guess play out a bit different then they did in the original Sc so players just diden't have time to adjust to the change like the protoss or terran.

 

While the set it and forget it build mode of the Protoss does give them an economic advantage by letting the player keep more workers on the mineral line. If the Zerg player had expanded further, he should have been able to outresource the protoss player, warp-in or not. Also with 3 bases the zerg player should be able to create at least 9 units at once (or 18 zerglings) so I can't imagine the speed advantage of warp-in meaning that much, of course with 2 expansions the zerg player should have more than 3 hatcheries. In addition 3 warp gates should cost more than 1 hatchery (or at least the same) so the Zerg player should have a production advantage.

Even with the movement advantage of the warp gate, I think there might be something else screwed up if a Zerg player can be outproduced by a Protoss player with less resource nodes. Even if the Protoss player can build faster, he should be running out of resources sooner if he has less expansions.


I do think that the Terrans should get drop pods back so they can hot drop units, to balance out the nydus worm and faster units of the zerg, and the warp-in hot drop ability of the Protoss, but I don't think warp-in is unbalanced.

 

I have a dumb question but when you warp in units are they already built or does warp in build the unit and transport it anywhere where there is a power field.

 

The unit is built on site similar to how buildings warp in. This also means they are vulnerable for a few seconds as it warps in.

 

Warp-In creates new units directly from the Warpgate, which goes on cooldown after you use it once. Existing units must travel by foot or Warp Prism.

I think that different units should have different cooldown effects on the Warpgate:
1) Zealots by 30 seconds (33 initial, 3 seconds discount),
2) Immortals by 50 seconds (55 initial, 5 seconds discount),
3) Stalker, Nullifier, High Templar and Dark Templar by 40 seconds (42 initial, 2 seconds discount),

They all warp-in in 5 seconds as default. Now, isn't that balanced?


-Psi

 

Also multi queens will be able to bring lots of units on the battle field rather quickly.

But ya I agree it should take away the reduced build time for units or make it like 5 seconds instead of 10 and maybe if needed make the tech unsearchable latter (although this warp in thing might not be as overpower as you guys are making out to be).

Also one might argue that it would be unfair to warp in a dark Templar for back door attacks because of overlapping pylon power but then they still can be transported so maybe they should be made from the dark obelisk (just for the sake of argument) .

 

PsiWarp: the cooldown for Warp-in is directly related to the unit's usual build time. Units that take longer to build cause it to cooldown for a longer period of time.

 

I think the discount must be at least 5 seconds just to balance things out. (It's currently 10 seconds.)

 

Very nice

The real problem lies in the research cost, even though 50 minerals 50 gas is just begging you to use it, Protoss are not about cheap upgrades.


-Psi

 

They could just bring up the cost of the upgrade and reduce the cooldown bonus from -10 to like -5 . It just seems way to powerfull in the early game at the moment.

 

But it isn't. Warp prisms mean the most threat but they come much later, so the only way is to build a proxy pylon, which is time consuming as well as risky, because pylons are crucial especially early game so losing one would throw the player behind by quite a bit. Without either of these, or an expansion with psi field possibly closer to the enemy, warp gates aren't really worth it.

But at the end of the day it's the beta phase that will answer all these questions, and Blizzard has good experience in balancework.

 

Yeah warp gates do require much attention and resources to use them effectively. Im sure that in the end everything will be properly balanced.

 

Philzude: "They could just bring up the cost of the upgrade and reduce the cooldown bonus from -10 to like -5 . "

Reducing the cooldown by only 5 seconds would seriously reduce the macro potential for warp gates.

 

Yeah, I think that may reduce the macro potential too.....Not meaning to sound stupid but what actually is macro and micro? I've never found out what they are...

 

Macro and Micro is basically "big" and "small" management. Micro management is managing your armies, probes, zealots, zerglings etc. Macro managing on the other hand is playing big by expanding or simply having more bases and buildings.

So basically, playing a Macro game is basically expanding fast and attempting to outresource your opponent, whiles "Microing" is doing a good job of moving your units around so you get an advantage on the battlefield.

 

Well I am more of a Micro player, in managing my armies/units and also, defenses?

 

I wonder could you have about 5 Warp Gates all almost about to make DTs then send about 10 Warp Phrisms into the enemies base 2 survive then 1 makes it to the center of you opponits base deployes the Phrism and then there are 5 DTs in the enemies base if your opponit is slow he won't have any detecters and only ground units your DTs quickly destroy the opposing units and send in another 5 DTs which would quickly destroy the base the only things left would be the outer defences which could be slowly and easily be destroyed or the exact same play only get behine your opponits base where his Drones/SCVs/Probes are and set it up and send in a few zealots to be really quick (you would need alot of Probs) then destroy your opponit or even get dragoons on a ledge which gives them an advantage lots of different possibilties that are effective, so i agree that the speed up production time sould be lowered to 5- or maybe 7- or a variable between units you could even get some units in your Warp Phrism to defend it, also im not really good at micro or macro I just went with the flow of what would make scence.