1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why zerg sucks and I'm switching races.

Discussion in 'Zerg' started by Konran, Dec 31, 2010.

Why zerg sucks and I'm switching races.

Discussion in 'Zerg' started by Konran, Dec 31, 2010.

  1. Konran

    Konran New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    So I have to say that I absolutely hate playing zerg now, and after playing about 1200 games as only zerg that is saying a lot. The main reason? The skill and reaction speed required to beat someone as terran/protoss is ridiculous. Drones cost the exact same as an scv/probe yet we have to waste them to morph a building. This may not seem bad but it is just one more thing you have to micro. So we've got to spread creep, inject larvae, spawn changelings, replace drones, and soon we'll be breaking our keyboards trying to spawn units because holding down a button is apparently too overpowered. Leaving the only non-attack micro toss/terran players have to do is create units and buildings.

    Not only that but you have to deal with cheese without being able to give anything back. You can be blocked in your base, cannon rushed, proxy barracks/bunker. What can I do? I can waste minerals by quickly plopping down a hatchery and then a spine crawler, wow that's useful. Or maybe I could steal their vespene for a bit, super useful. Both Protoss/Terran can block themselves in their base, Zerg cannot. This may not seem like a big deal until your stuck doing absolutely nothing until they try to take their natural expansion. Being able to prevent them fairly easily from taking their natural is a good thing, but not being able to see what is inside their base is possibly the worst part about the game. Against a good protoss/terran player the only option you have is either an overlord flyby (waste of 100 mins) or an overseer changeling drop. Against a low plat/diamond player the changeling is virtually useless early game, it will get
    picked off before you can see anything. What does a toss/terran have to do? Just scan or fly a cloaked unit overhead, which will usually be missed, until

    its too late. Hell..they could usually just walk right in.

    What really pisses me off though is how weak zerg units are and how few I have to choose from compared to toss/terran (more on this later). Early game the only thing I can choose is zergling/baneling/roach. Terran doesn't even have to worry about any of these units as they can block themselves in and pick off most of your units before you even break their barricade. By the time you can even do this they either have hellions, banshees, tanks, or vikings to counter anything you have. Trust me too, they will have a counter to what you have because they'll just scan your base. Protoss is a bit easier to deal with, however zealots and stalkers (especially blink) counter lings/banes/roach so you better have numbers on your side. This is next to impossible to do once toss upgrades to warp gates, they'll match your macro quite easily.

    Going into T2 is even more frustrating as all a terran player has to do is surround a few thors with scvs (can't wait till this get fixed) and a ball of marauders/marines. All protoss has to do is surround a few colossi with stalkers and if you are fighting off creep, you're f**ked. I also absolutely hate having to waste precious minerals on spore launchers or several queens to take care of a single early cloaked banshee. This happens -every- and I mean -every- single zvt game I play. It forces me to fast tech to either hydras/mutas which leaves me with fewer T1 units to fend off the attack that is coming right after the early cloaked banshee. If I tech to hydras the only thing a terran player has to do is get siege tanks and if I tech to mutas I'm usually overpowered by marines, easily.

    Going into T3 is laugh worthy as all I have to chose from is Ultralisks/Broodlords, which btw..only attack ground. Both protoss and terran have T3 units that attack air and ground. This forces to me to dwindle down my choices of units to use. I either have to create hydras/infestors to protect Ultras against air or Corruptors/Hydras to protect broodlords against air. You better hope you don't get to teir 3 in the first place though. Not only do you need to stay a base ahead of your opponent (which means more money/supply wasted on drones) if you take a maxed out 200 zerg army and compare it to a 200 terran/toss army, and the terran/toss army will almost always win. The only way you have a chance is if they just throw their army at you on creep without microing a single unit.

    Last and not least I want you to look at this. I only included units that do not auto-cast attacks aka don't use magic such as High

    Templar/Raven/Infestor.

    Overall attack units to choose from -
    Toss - Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Immortal/Colossus/Phoenix/Void Ray/Dark Templar/Archon/Carrier/Mothership (11)
    Terran -Marine/Marauder/Reaper/Ghost/Hellion/Siege Tank/Thor/Viking/Banshee/Battlecruiser (10)
    Zerg - Zergling/Queen/Hydra/Baneling/Roach/Muta/Corruptor/Ultralisk (8)

    Units that attack air -
    Toss - Stalker/Sentry/Phoenix/Void Ray/Archon/Carrier/Mothership (7)
    Terran - Marine/Thor/Viking/Battleship//Ghost (5)
    Zerg - Queen/Hydra/Mutalisk/Corruptor (4)

    Units that attack both air/ground -

    Toss - Stalker/Sentry/Void Ray/Archon/Carrier/Mothership (6)
    Terran - Marine/Thor/Viking/Battleship/Ghost (5)
    Zerg - Queen/Hydra/Mutalisk (3)

    Units that attack only ground -
    Toss - Zealot/Immortal/Colossus/Dark Templar (4)
    Terran - Marauder/Reaper/Siege Tank/Hellion (4)
    Zerg - Zergling/Baneling/Roach/Ultralisk (4)

    Units that are pure spellcasters -

    Toss - High Templars (1)
    Terran - Raven (1)
    Zerg - Infestors (1)

    Tech buildings required for spawning units -

    Toss - Gateway/Stargate/Robotics Facility (3)
    Terran - Barracks/Factory/Starport (3)
    Zerg - Hatchery/Lair/Hive (3) (technically 1)

    Further tech buildings required for spawning units

    Toss - Cybernetics Core/Fleet Beacon/Twilight Council/Dark Shrine/Templar Archives (5)
    Terran - Tech Lab/Reactor/Fusion Core/Armory/Ghost Academy (5)
    Zerg - Spire/Greater spire/Infestation Pit/Ultralisk Cavern/Roach Warden/Hydralisk Den/Banelings Nest/Spawning Pool (9)

    Therefore even though zerg has the least amount of units to chose from they require the most tech buildings to spawn them. What does this mean? If I need to counter something I usually have to create a building for every single unit (aside from the spire which allows for the creation of two units). I could honestly go on and on about how gimped zerg is and how you have to be twice as good as your opponent to win but I think I've said enough. If you think I've gotten anything wrong I'd gladly refute my arguments.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2010
  2. 1n5an1ty

    1n5an1ty Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    879
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Reality


    Indeed.


    Anyways....
    @the few units

    Zling/Baneling/Roach. as opposed to mass rine/ marine+maurader and zlot,stalker,zlot/stalker. right? and a couple sentries?
    gjgjgjgjgj
     
  3. Konran

    Konran New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    What are you getting at here?
     
  4. Hodl pu

    Hodl pu New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    925
    Likes received:
    2
    Trophy points:
    0
    Zerg Tier 3 sucks. Thats about the only thing I agree on.
     
  5. Makki

    Makki Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Denmark
    yeah i agree with Hodl... Zerg Tier 3 just sucks in some way...
    although i know that ultralisks counter every single ground unit that terran has if they can get a good surround
    but they cant cause terran will just make marauders and kite the ultralisks till death ._.

    I think that zerg needs some good anti-mass-voidray units xD
    but thats for all the races... voidrays are just overpowered
    I also think that Zerg needs a unit that counters thors except zerglings -.-

    but i dont agree with anything else that Konran said even though im Zerg
     
  6. Stirlitz

    Stirlitz Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    840
    Likes received:
    5
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Greece
    The zerg have the ability to max out a 200/200 army in a single production cycle in the late game. If zerg "tier 3" was as potent as protoss carriers or terran battlecruisers imagine how the game would be:
    Zerg would get a 200/200 army and maneuvre around being maxed surviving and holding off attacks and building static defenses while piling up money. Then do a 200/200 push and instantly replace it with a 200/200 tier 3 army wiping out everything the enemy can throw off. This would be some serious imbalance, and that's why zerg top tier units work the way they do...

    That's on zerg's weak tier 3, and why I don't agree that it's "weak". On the OP's original post, I was tempted to make a quote-by-quote critique since I believe it's extremely flawed but right now I don't have the time to since I g2g...

    I strongly disagree with the OP and will probably explain why in length in the following couple of days, whenever I get some time... There's a lot more depth to the zerg than most zerg players see(most players actually, but I'm currently talking about the ones who play the race since they're affected the most) and they tend to not get advantage of the race's strengths...

    Sorry for doing something like dropping a disagree-bomb and leaving but I gotta run, will hopefully ellaborate soon...

    Cheers
     
  7. 1n5an1ty

    1n5an1ty Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    879
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Reality
    See, what I wish everyone in sc2 wud do is be moar creative. instead of being nub douchebags who write down 2 build orders down the last pixels of where their units will be.
     
  8. Ste

    Ste New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    585
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Chicago
    Zerg isn't the race new players should be playing.

    if your not good with zerg I suggest playing Terran until you think your good with them, then play protoss until you think your good with them.

    Then you can play zerg, seeing as though you should now understand the other two races weaknesses and what they hate to see from zerg.
     
  9. Konran

    Konran New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    Be more creative? How so? As I showed Zerg has the least amount of units to choose from. Having over 1300 games played with Zerg would also take me out of the 'Nub Douchbag' category.





    Every race hast he ability to max out a 200/200 army in a single production cycle, albeit a bit harder for terran to achieve as it requires quite a few reactors. Are you trying to say that toss with chrono boost and warp gates cannot keep up with the macro of a Zerg player at end game?

    I find it funny that instantly everyone is on the defense. I never stated that you could not win a game playing Zerg, just that it requires more skill to do so. An RTS game should be balanced, and while Terran and Toss are fairly balanced against each other, Zerg is weak and you must constantly keep on your toes to win.

    Its not right that I have to have micro all of my units, spread my creep, keep a base ahead of my opponent, worry about cheese, and have a hard time scouting while Terran/Toss can basically sit back, relax and most of the time just turtle to max supply and Hurrrpadurrrr win the game.

    Zerg isn't the race new players should be playing. Do I look like a new player? I bought the game the day it came out and have been playing it steadily since. Hell I think the only time I've lost a zerg v zerg matchup in the past month was against a rank 17 diamond player. My problem is not knowing how to play Zerg, it is my frustration with the fact that the game should be balanced and it is clearly not.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2010
  10. Makki

    Makki Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Denmark
    i agree with guy above ^^
    EDIT - oh wait... thats too late for me to say now ^^

    then ill just agree with Ste
     
  11. 1n5an1ty

    1n5an1ty Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    879
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Reality
    Should be balanced, I agree, and it is not, agree, but i believe that you are exaggerating how imba sc2 is.
     
  12. Ste

    Ste New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    585
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Chicago
    Konran: a couple very blunt things.

    Blizzard thinks the game is balanced and doesn't care about scrubs.

    A scrub is anyone that isn't pro or high level diamond, so your opinion will not be listened to.

    Zerg players won two tournaments therefore its simply matter of playing them correctly to win.

    Once you accept that blizzard does not care about what you have to say and learn to adapt no matter wut you will be better for it.

    Srsly, if your were pro or high level diamond complaining about some imba thing, then they might just might think about caring.

    Oh and lastly, just cause your not new to sc2 doesn't mean your not new to highly competitive rts's.

    Play the easier races so you can see how other zergs beat you, then copy it. :p
     
  13. 1n5an1ty

    1n5an1ty Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    879
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Reality
    I honestly dont give a crap about people's rankings, unless it's high-up pro.

    Blizzard is a pile of arrogant and cocky retards that not only eat feces, but like it so much that they wrap it in aluminium foil and sell it to the world as a pile of silver.
     
  14. Konran

    Konran New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    Hahaahaahaaa...

    Okay, so you state that blizzard thinks the game is balanced, yet they continually make patches to change the balance of the game. Yea, I think you are wrong good sir. Oh and if you would of read anything I posted you would of gotten something much different from it than what you did. I never said that Zerg cannot win a game, because they can. Sometimes players screw up in strategies or just do something plane wrong. Sometimes players are just that good and they'll trump everyone they play. Zerg isn't highly imbalanced but they are still weaker and cannot do many of the things terran/toss players can.

    I'm really sick of people saying that just because people aren't rank #1 diamond means their opinion doesnt matter. You don't need to be the highest rank possible to understand the dynamics of the game. So don't get all butthurt because I'm stating -my- opinion on a non-blizzard forum. If I had aimed my post towards blizzard I would of e-mailed them instead of ranted here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2010
  15. Makki

    Makki Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Denmark
    yeah i dont give a damn about rankings and i do think that zerg is harder to play than the other races but just do as Ste told you.. cause he rocks when it comes to awesome suggestions xD
     
  16. Konran

    Konran New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    Better be careful, you might not be able to breathe with your head shoved that far up his...:laugh:
     
  17. RushSecond

    RushSecond New Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    436
    Likes received:
    4
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    San Diego
    The truth is, no one on this forum has even come close to having a reasonable idea of the current balance state of SC2. The best we can do is list the advantages and disadvantages of the units and races; however we can't definitively say whether those advantages and disadvantages add up to an overall advantage or disadvantage.

    Take Zerg. They have some advantages:
    - Hatcheries produce every unit, no need for barracks/gateways, etc
    - Creep speeds up almost every ground unit
    - Can scout with overlords (flying supply depots?!)
    - Larva can pile up to allow immediate reinforcements in late game
    - If left alone, zerg can make workers much faster than other races

    There's also disadvantages:
    - Buildings must have creep (impossible to wall off)
    - You lose the drone when it turns into a building
    - Must make tech structures for every unit
    - Somewhat weaker units
    - Less options for anti-air

    How would we know whether the disadvantages outweigh the advantages? The only way is thorough testing. The way I imagine Blizzard does it:

    1) Take a high level game that isn't a mirror match. The players should make as few mistakes as possible.
    2) Analyze the play of both players, both positive and negative actions.
    3) Compare the actions of both players, and based on that, come to a conclusion on who should have won.
    4) If the actual winner of the game was not the player who should have won, then that is an indication of a balance problem.
    5) Repeat steps 1-4 for 30+ more high level games.
    6) List the general trends of the data, and come to a conclusion of whether there is a balance problem or not.

    Which is far more work than anyone here is willing to do, especially since there are Blizzard employees already doing this for a living.
     
  18. Makki

    Makki Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Denmark
    wtf... :C

    dont worry ill place a few bunkers and some turrets and ill be safe ^^
     
  19. Ste

    Ste New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    585
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Chicago
    LOL.

    Ok ok konran, just go play Terran, youll win then cause they are OP.

    AMIRITE!!?


    But I am still 99.99% sure that this thread was ended with the fact that zerg players won the 2nd/3rd gsl.

    I mean whoa, if they can win with an up race, that has to mean your just l2p more, amirite?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2010
  20. Zorgilon

    Zorgilon New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    35
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    greece
    Well i play zerg mainly because i love them but it is true that they require more effort than the other races (especially when compared to terran) . I do not think you are wrong about switching races since i have been tempted to do so many times . The bad thing about zerg is that you must have macro in order to always have more army than your opponent since in even numbers they usually crush you. And i believe that starcraft 2 is just a game and you have to enjoy it, so play any race that will do so :)