Your opinion about this...

Note: Idea changed. See replay #10


First, sorry for my not perfect English. I hope you will understand the idea.

I would like to see in SC2 option for personal unit upgrading, through automatically adding 1 damage point for each killed enemy unit. These points (lets call them veteran or skill points) are personal, i. e. only the killer will receive it, not all units of same type. These additional damage points should be added to the weapon used for the kill(s). So if given unit has more than one type of weapon, the points will be added independently.

Example (will use terran unit, but this is applicable for all races):

Goliath 1 (fully upgraded)
Kills: 0
Twin Autocannons - Damage: 12+3
Hellfire Missile Pack - Damage: 20+12

Goliath 2 (fully upgraded)
Kills: 7
-destroyed structures: 1
-killed units using Twin Autocannons: 2
-killed units using Hellfire Missile Pack: 4
As a result:
Twin Autocannons - Damage: 12+3 +2 veteran/skill points
Hellfire Missile Pack - Damage: 20+12 +4 veteran/skill points

In this example there is no bonus points for the destroyed strucrure, but this option needs debate. There will be no bonus points for "spells", nuclear bombs ect.

This will create some extra valuable (super) units.

Where is the realism? In the real life a war veteran usually knows better than some rookie how to kill faster the enemy, because he/she has experience - knows better which point(s) to shoot/hit and there are fewer missed shots/hits. This should be true and in the game(s). So, I would like to see this option in SC2. Would You... ?

P. S.
I hope you understood me.

 

Hmmm, I guess it would make the game more unbalanced.
So no, I don't like the idea.

 

Yeah, there's some other games that use that system, I dont personally like it myself.

 

Well, I like it, it makes sense and it has lots of strategic value.

 

Doesn't Red Alert or some other one have a system like this...?

And I know they're all old, but I think there's been a few topics about ranking and veteranism or whatnot.

 

Heheh, your english is better than some english-speaking forum goers

This isn't the first veterancy discussion we've had, but from those that I've read it seems the most well thought out. The problem, though, is deciding how many kills will get veterancy/skill points. The Void Ray (Warp Ray previously) is an example. This unit is designed to destroy buildings, so it's kill count is going be much lower compared to something like the Colossus, which is good at destroying lots of little units.

Another problem is influence of the veterancy - if you have a ton of units who you have managed to get upgraded veterancy, then the other player will be utterly destroyed - if some sort of unit veterancy were to be put in, I'd like it to be small scale - only two or three units should be upgraded. Those units may make a difference in small skirmishes, but in the largers scale battles where there can be lots of focus fire, they may die as quickly as any normal unit.

What I'd like to see is to have pickups that turn a unit into a hero, like the Uraj/Khalis crystals, data discs, chrysali and etc in Starcraft: Brood War. as items, their only place was as a story item. with the SC2 editor, you could place them in proportion to how many players are in the map: 2 for 2 player map, 2 for 3 player map, 3 for 4 player map, and so on. EX: having a zergling pick up the powerup would turn it into the Devouring One hero zergling. Having him will probably make a difference when you have a pair of zerglings vs 3-4 marines, but he'll have less of an impact on large-scale tier 3 battles.

 

Without wanting to sound rude at all, this does not belong in the SC universe. Not just this, but any kind of veterancy system. Your idea would make armour practically useless and everyone would go for weapon upgrades only. Also note that Protoss would be at a severe disadvantage owing to their inability to restore hitpoints, not to mention Zerg with their ephemeral units.

Welcome to the forums, though keep up the ideas and enjoy your stay.

 

Didn't blizzard already come up with this idea?

 

Yes and no to it.

Yes because as you said, it makes logical sense.

No because certain units wuld be extremely overpowered. Units that can oneshot smaller units (like the Dark Templar in the first) would quickly rack up kills. I don't want a unit running around with 40+9+24.

 

To be clear I'm not a vivid gamer. I play only very few games, and definitely I'm not good SC player. This idea came in to my mind 2 days ago . Nothing new as I understood of you. Then found this:
http://www.starcraft2forum.org/index.php?categoryid=8&p2_articleid=8

To be clear I'm speaking (writing) for all races, not just terrans.

After reading your replays I should agree that that first variant of veterancy system is not good. But I will not give up. Pls do not blame me . It is funny for me. So, lets change it:

Hm... it is not realistic units to add unlimited number of skill points. Anyone of us can be improved, but to certain limits.

Only units that their damage points can be upgraded at some structure can add skill points. This means that we will use the original game matrix, as a result I suppose there will be no unbalancing (needs testing).
If the game allows 3 upgrades for given type of unit, then unit of that type can not heap up personal skill points more than the points given after current level of upgrade in some structure (suppose you did not understood me .

Example:
Goliath (not upgraded at Armory)
Kills: 3
-killed units (structures included) using Twin Autocannons: 1
-killed units (structures included) using Hellfire Missile Pack: 2
As a result:
Twin Autocannons - Damage: 12 (no additional points)
Hellfire Missile Pack - Damage: 20 (no additional points)

Goliath (upgraded at Armory Level: 1)
Kills: 7
-killed units (structures included) using Twin Autocannons: 2
-killed units (structures included) using Hellfire Missile Pack: 5
As a result:
Twin Autocannons - Damage: 12+1 +1 skill point (skill points can not exceed the points from current level of upgrade)
Hellfire Missile Pack - Damage: 20+4 +4 skill points (as above)

Goliath (upgraded at Armory Level: 3)
Kills: 12
-killed units (structures included) using Twin Autocannons: 5
-killed units (structures included) using Hellfire Missile Pack: 7
As a result:
Twin Autocannons - Damage: 12+3 +3 skill points (skill points can not exceed the points from current level of upgrade)
Hellfire Missile Pack - Damage: 20+12 +7 skill points

The idea is that the skill points can not be more than the points given after the current level of upgrade.

That way at early stages of game the units can not pile up damage points. Also at later stages there will be no Zergling as powerful as Ultralisk (so, no super units, only better than average - veterans). Also this will not ruin the concept of armor.

Terran in bunker can not add skill points (needs debate).

Destroyed structures will add skill points.

Most importantly, this veterancy system should be optional, i. e. can be turned on/off (to say in game menu). I don't think it is so hard to be made. This way everyone will have the choice - to use it or not.

At all in real game there will be only few (if any) max upgraded units.

Lets do not say NO before we try it . I believe that this can enrich the game if well done. Of course needs more dabate...

 

I don't see this as being able to be done effectively.

The biggest problem with your (second) idea is that you won't know which units have the skill points without clicking each individually, micro won't be very effective when you don't know which hydra's are inflicting 21 damage and which hydra's are inflicting 32 (i made up those numbers so they mightn't work out like that ) either controlling them or facing them.

I think terran would have some pretty high tech targeting technology that would reduce human error and level the playing field of veterans and recruits.
Zerg being effectively one entity, not sentient on their own, would mean that they would not gain experience so to speak.
Protoss warriors are already veterans when they are warped-in to the battle.

I think this idea would be great as a casual mod but not for standard starcraft2.

 

Agree and not agree. This will be true in the first bigger battle, but after that you can pick up the extra upgraded units, then Ctrl+1/+2.... and now you have "special forces". This will be true after every battle. Also, imagine if Blizzard made this: if group of units is selected every unit with extra damage points to has little "+" on it's icon, lets say in the lower right corner (have few more (better) ideas how to be inicated level of skill on the icons). This will facilitate the grouping and the using of these units.

Very good points, but if the races are initially perfect, why then even the game allows upgrading? I would say 100% realism is not practical, but some... is.

Yes, as noted this should be optional. This will be like 2 games in 1. When veterancy system is ON the most appropriate tactics is one, when OFF should be other. This will enrich the game.

Also, when playing:
Protoss vs. Protoss
Terran vs. Terran
Zerg vs. Zerg

Or team games:
Protoss + Terran vs. Protoss + Terran
Protoss + Zerg vs. Protoss + Zerg
ect.
In these cases there will be NO ANY, even insignificant unbalancing, when using veterancy system.

What do you think about this? Do you want it in SC2, or not? If not - why, it is optional?!

 

omg....the Agents just changed something in the Matrix!



We're screwed.

 

This idea needs a bit of balancing, but I am glad you put a limit on it.

Powering up units a little bit for kills is a good idea, as long as it is limited (the power ups take more than a few kills), and the power up is reasonable (I'd say +2/+4 damage tops)

 

I really like the sound of that idea for like a ..... how to say "use of map settings" game. It would be cool to write those advanced triggers.

EDIT: yeah it would pretty much screw over the balance of the game if that were to happen

 

If the limit is same for all units, there for sure will be severe unbalancing. Why?

Example:

Currently through upgrading Marine can add +50% more damage points (6+3 that is +50%), Siege Tank +21.4% (70+15), Reaver +25% (100+25) ect.

If the skill point upgrade is fixed let's say to +3 skill points for all units, then:

Marine can add extra 33.3% damage power (6+3=9 +33.3%=12 (6+3+3))
Siege Tank can add only extra 3.5% (70+15+3)
Reaver only 2.4% (100+25+3)
ect.

If used the original game matrix/pattern, these percentages will be respectively +33.3% (6+3+3), +17.6% (70+15+15), +20% (100+25+25)

Summary:
+50%, +21.4%, +25% - SC:BW
+33.3%, +3.5%, +2.4% - same for all (+3)
+33.3%, +17.6, +20% - If used the original game pattern

I. e. If the skill points are same for all units there will be huge unbalance. This will make the small units comparatively much more powerful. As a result (almost) no one will use this mode.

As I can't see any argument(s) I only can say that you have the right to not like the right of choice. Or maybe I'm wrong? Maybe you have real argument(s)? Maybe there is a (potentially) great game which is "screwed" by single optional "trigger" in the menu? PLS LMK if there is such game.

P. S. Pls do not be sad! No one from Blizzard will ever read this thread, even if I post it and in other SC forums

 

I think that it could make starcraft 2 more micro-intense but could also unballence it a bit. let's say you have ultras vs rines. in sc2, scince ultras have splash, they could be used by themselves w/o any lings. anyways 1 could get fully uped+a few killed and then start 1 hitting with splash.

I have to give this a 6.5/10

 

Yes, this is true. I think there is no doubt that this mode will be more micro-intense. When veterancy mode is ON the game at micro level must be different (as in your example). There should be not unbalancing but rebalancing (differently balanced). This is the sense of this mode - to make the game different. Otherwise if the strategy and tactics did not change, this mode will be worthless. Why to use it if the game did not change at some level. Exactly because of that I said that this will be like 2 games in 1 (with just 1 click). The most important thing is to be maintained the overall balance between the 3 races (not only at 1 unit vs. 1 unit level). The races must be equally powerful at overall level.

 

the best thing is that you are willing to change your idea on peoples feedback, alot of users will simply post an idea and sit stubbornly with it.


I'm not sure how the damage amount should be done, even based on the same percentage a unit like seige tank will get significantly more kills than a marine due to the strong splash damage and longer life.

 

I think this idea would work for Warcraft III, where you have fewer units, and the individual has a stronger role, but it doesn't have a good place in Starcraft II.