Evolutionary missing link found.

@Maelstrom, i dont think anti-abortions should be part of that list. A lot of arguements and opinions arent on the religious level with that issue

 

well mael, i am against human stem cell research and against abortion just because i believe at life at conception and think it's killing life. i don't go screaming at other people to believe but i do get heated if people challenge me. i just open it i say 'i don't believe it's right because it's killing lives' and that's what i believe. I respect others' opinion because they don't believe it's lies, i won't judge them because what they believe, but i still don't agree with it.

and the thing is, yeah, i think my faith is healthy. i'm cool with gay people, i argue satanists aren't evil, i acknowledge other viewpoints. but you can't just say that for people who are religious. I've known some atheists who are very steadfast and bull headed, too. so it's not really a religion thing, it's a personality thing, i think. Some people like me are open to ideas and learn, and accept, others refuse to think it's true and fight it. I don't have a problem with people being close minded so much as when they attack others with their beliefs, as Renatus did.

 

True, but bull-headed atheist at least don't get in the way of science xD They may be pretty irritating and arrogant and whatnot, but AT LEAST they allow scientific progress. Sure, science is developing in such way where controversy is bound to happen, and heated arguments, moral arguments, will arise. Its ok to disagree, its wrong to force people into doing what you think its right.

I would like to know why you disagree with stem cell research please I mean.. I could understand if you were against abortion like iffjdrie said, but.. stem cells? they're like.. cells. And can cure incurable diseases.

@iffjdrie: About abortion, I certainly would not like to go on a rant about it. Specially because that would unleash a rant on your side as well, and we'd end up fighting.
All im going to say is, I put it on that list, because the abortion topic, together with those others I mentioned, are heavily opposed by religious groups (among other people ofc, but religious groups are the most 'active' ones I would say) and many of the justifications against it are based on religious grounds (not all of them though)
It's not that im Ok with abortion, in fact, I would never do it (that is, I would never let my girl do it)

However, if someone else wants to have an abortion, I don't think Im in a position of opposing him. I mean, who the f*ck am I to decide for you wether or not you should have that baby?
I know nothing about you, nothing about the events leading to the pregnancy, so how could I possibly intervene? It makes no sense at all.

So I think, instead of wasting time and effort into preventing people from getting the abortion, maybe we should work in TALKING with people. Letting them know there are other possibilities. Teaching Sex education at schools. But never, NEVER, forcing them.

Because in YOUR opinion is murder. In THEIR opinion its not. So, what are we going to do? Only solution is: Let each individual decide for themselves. Period.

 

... you realize i have not stated my opinion on the issue yet?

still, i think the religious groups just are the loudest, not the most numerous

 

@mael, i don't believe in it because as i said i believe in life at conception. Even if they are curing diseases, even if it's going to be better in the end, they're still killing the zygotes (the joined egg and sperm, because they take the DNA and cells from them, harvesting them and killing the host cell at the same time) and I don't think it's right to sacrifice one life, an unborn one at that, even if it's a bunch of little cells.

 

Uhh... *giggles* ***** bone... lulz. Nice find anyways, I saw this on GMA (Good Morning America) it was pretty interesting. I always find it cool to be able to see past life through preserved fossils. Sometimes I wish to be a paleontologist when I grow up whenever these things are found.

 

Yeah, I just took something you said and made an idea out of it, its not that im disagreeing with you or nothing like that, I just spat what I had on my mind basing myself on the comments you posted.

And yes, they're the loudest, that's the problem. Not their numbers, but their often zealous opposition sometimes leads them to do things I don't consider appropriate.

And about stem cells.. they're obtained from the severed umbillical cord If i recall correctly, so even if these cells were ''alive'', is there any way to.. give birth to these cells? They'll just stay like cells and eventually die. In fact, the umbillical cord until recently was just thrown away by doctors. And no one ever cared about that.

And we could argue on the fact that killing for the sake of survival is acceptable. I.E killing a cow for food if you're starving. So If I had leukemia for example, and had the chance to get some cord blood.. well why not? How many ants have we accidentally killed while walking on the grass, how many cows/chickens/vegetables (they're technically alive) have we eaten throughout our existence?. We'd had to survive on water and air alone if we truly though this was wrong. Our body is built in a way where it's only way of sustenance is through the ''death'' of other living beings. Its pretty ironic but that's the way it is.
And its not like you're killing a baby, you're killing a cell.. I've killed many million cells already doing you know what lol
Hell, even using a condom is pseudogenocide.

 

Read from a site to better understand what I'm arguing. found an interesting site: http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/pros-and-cons-of-stem-cell-research.htm

anyway, yes you're right they can be harvester from the umbilical cord, but also from embryonic cells from aborted fetuses. I believe such fetuses are people, have souls, and that killing them. To quote a bit for those who don't want to read it. " Those who value human life from the point of conception, oppose embryonic stem cell research because the extraction of stem cells from this type of an embryo requires its destruction. In other words, it requires that a human life be killed. Some believe this to be the same as murder." That's why I oppose it.

also, I don't consider human and animal life the same....I meant killing people, per se. The cycle of lfie is carnivors, and herbavors, all need top exist to survive, so I have no issues with eating other animals. Hell, if an animal killed a human 'd feel sad but I would say that animal was justified in doing what it did. It had to eat or die. It's something they can't help, they have to eat to live. So I'll ignore the rest of your rant because I really don't hold the lfie of an animal and that of a human hand in hand (thought I still deeply value animal life, because without them we cannot live, but i won't get into that).

And, to me, it IS a baby. It isn't just a cell. As for the genocide...people try to snipe me with that ALL the time. The, oh even masturbating/using a condom is killing 'potential' life so it's just as bad. No, I don't agree with that. Because until they join it's not a life. Before they join they ARE just cells. when they meet it gives it all the necessary makeup of a human, a person, a life. I don't consider it one before that and using a condom and preventing a life isn't the same thing as killing one that is already alive. Also on the topic of skin cells and such dying all the time, yet again it's not the same...those are not individual lives. the embryonic cell, blastoma to zygote to fetus, to me, IS a person. Skin cells are not people, neither are brain cells not any of that. they makeup the body and yes they die all the time. but they do NOT contain life as I believe a embryonic cell does, that's why i'm against stem cell research.

to bring that around as to not upset the topic of this thread, it's interesting to see evolution. Because, as said I do believe in it. We've survived a long time, our bodies ever changing and surviving. We don't need the research of someone else's forfeited life for science. Yes, things have changed and we live with many more benefits than our forefathers, but where do we start drawing the line between moving on and sacrificing life? To me it brings about a holocaust feel. When Hitler and Goebells and others performed experiments on jews and had no qualms because they didn't consider them people or alive. It's the same thing here. Sure, we made lots of advances in medical technology because of such life consuming, immoral experiments, but at what cost? You may scoff at this comparison because you say they could feel it and were alive, and tortured. But a life is a life is a life to me, and I don't think science has the right to take that away from someone, especially someone who doesn't have the ability to say no.

 

then why are you against Stem Cell Research? its not the scientists fault that the fetuses are being aborted and were to be thrown away since the parents of them didnt want other people having them, but didnt want anymore children of their own.

*suddenly feels like he doesnt belong in this argument right now*

 

You do realize that everyday of your life you kill millions if not billions of micro-organisms and single celled life forms just from doing daily every day things such as washing your hands, taking a shower,etc. They are living just the same as humans and have already been "born", they just aren't as complex as us. A life is a life right?

So if it is a human cell, its all of a sudden not okay? It's not like its painful for them or if they are even aware. Death is a part of life and everyone lives and dies at some point. Yes, I agree it is sad and unfortunate but I look at it as the cycle of life.

Men and Woman also kill off many would be human cells and eggs just by natural processes if you know what I mean.

Humans are also part of nature just as animals. We may be more complex and have technology but we are still part of the earth and its cycles as we were born from it. We have to consume others and recourses to survive.

I would also have to argue the thing with Hitler is much different because they tortured and starved people to death and they were already conscious beings. They didn't just kill people they were killed in very cruel matters oppose to painlessly and not being aware of it.

 

Well yes, I was always referring to umbilical cord harvesting, not the other option. If every single person that has a child would donate the cord to a foundation we could have enough cells to cure many if not all of those with diseases that are treatable with stem cells. And in the future its very likely that many other diseases will be curable this way, like Parkinsons' and Alzheimer.

By the way, the 'genocide' argument was not intented to 'snipe' you Its just that.. well.. it happens, so I though I'd bring it up. And its true, we literally kill millions all the time. And yes, they're not humans yet. a Zygote is not a human either.

And comparing Dr. Mengele's research to stem cell research is crazy. There is a big leap between a fully developed being and a cell. Or two or three or 20 or 5000. (Human body has trillions)
Just like pancake said, killing cells is part of our everyday life. And human cells should not be any more special that germ cells really, specially when the goal is to improve human life. That is, humans that are ACTUALLY alive in a more realistic sense. Not would-be humans.


PS: We'll never end arguing are we? Maybe we should call a truce

 

How about we all just agree to dis-agree, each side has valid points and counters to the argument, so lets just end it here. But this topic has been useful on my research into the human pysch, so i thank you all for this.

 

If someone wants to continue the aborition debate feel free to create a topic on the issue, I promise atleast one post on the issue from me. And to give you an idea of my position on most issues, most "pro-lifers" probably would be happy seeing me put to death.

 

No needs kerwyn, I'm done because one sentence. Or rather two
"And its true, we literally kill millions all the time. And yes, they're not humans yet. a Zygote is not a human either"

I can see your side, but I don't agree with it. so we cannot debate this because we both believe different things and can see why the other believes such but don't see eye to eye therefore any attempt to discuss this is null and void. Plus I really don't want to feel like kerwyn should die =P

 

unless we can we loot his corpse, no offense kerwyn, but being a high rank you might drop something interesting.