Fixation: ZvT - why ball isn't fun anymore

Discussion in 'StarCraft 2 Strategy Discussion' started by quickvic, May 27, 2011.

Fixation: ZvT - why ball isn't fun anymore

  1. Makki

    Makki Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Denmark
    I disagree the OP... (probably because im zerg... except its not.. except it still may be...)
     
  2. quickvic

    quickvic New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    29
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Bucharest
  3. Carnuss

    Carnuss New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    138
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    "TvZ is unbalanced against T." - :laugh::wacko:
     
  4. quickvic

    quickvic New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    29
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Bucharest
    Do you have any argument? I feel like you're trying to communicate.
     
  5. Supernova

    Supernova New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    40
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Wisconsin
    Lol - I've read this whole thing..

    Quickvic - what is your rank as T? Seems like you are just having an OVERLY defensive mindset in this matchup. Do you just need work on your macro and aggression tactics?

    I play Z, and I'll admit, if a terran player lets me sit and make drones for the first 8-10 minutes of the game, I will. I'll have about 65 workers in that time frame, and be on 3 bases complete with baneling speed, and mutalisks. I won't spend more than 2 larvae on zerglings until I have that 3rd base approaching saturation, and every additional larvae will be spent on drones and overlords.

    HOWEVER - if the terran decides to harass me with early marine pressure, or marine/hellion pressure, or banshee harass, or reaper pressure, or a 2-rax opener, or a small marine/tank push, there is no way in hell that I'll have 65 drones with baneling speed, and mutas. I'll be hoping for 2 decently saturated bases due to any of the following:
    - the number of spines I'm forced to build (drone cost)
    - lings that I have to build (drone and larvae cost)
    - a roach warren + a few roaches (if i need to respond to heavy hellion/blueflame) (also multiple drones/larvae)
    - a fast evo chamber and spores if banshees (multiple larvae and drone cost))

    The Terran's ability to macro an army AND SCVs at the same time without severe consequence is proof that they should be applying pressure in order to limit the drone production of the Zerg. If a Zerg opens with ling/baneling pressure, or roach pressure, or REALLY fast muta, they are inevitably delaying, or killing their economy. They HAVE to do damage to the terran, or they have already fallen significantly behind, perhaps enough even to have lost the game to any type of counter attack. If they dont lose the counter attack, the have likely been making an army (and not drones), and will not have the income to support an army for the subsequent following or continued attack.

    As you can see, there are a ton of ways that you can pressure a zerg that forces to stop them from building drones and forces them to use minerals/larvae/drones to defend. Even feigning pressure can sometimes work to temporarily halt drone production. Despite whatever pressure you as a terran put on to halt the drone production of a zerg, you, as terran, still have the ability to continue to make SCVs.

    Leaving a zerg to macro to 3 saturated bases in 10 minutes does not make zerg overpowered, it simply means that the Terran OR Protoss opponents are not applying any pressure, or forcing the zerg to delay his tech due to limited resources/income.

    If you watch any TvZ, or PvZ at high level, you will see that the T or P opponents do whatever possible to limit the drone production in the form of aggression. If you watch a ZvZ, you will see that alot of times, if both Zergs do not miss injects, and are not falling behind one another, they will have similar build orders and similar incomes and supply.

    If you choose, take time and watch the similarities in this high level ZvZ between Idra and Catz. There were very marginal differences in income, and if one of them wanted a tech advantage over the other, they were required to sacrifice something else in return.

    http://sc2casts.com/cast4725-IdrA-vs-CatZ-1-Game-Unknown-Event-Pro-SC2-VOD

    High level zerg play is dictated by available larva, drone count, and how fast they can achieve a high drone count and high available larva count. Once a zerg reaches that limit, things become tough for T and P - unless T or P are on similar economic grounds. What Z lacks in army durability and strength, they gain in the ability to reproduce that army quickly. A T or P that is constantly trading armies (completely) with a Zerg opponent, is probably losing if the zerg has more expos.

    If you're at platinum or below, chances are you need work with your overall game mechanics. Threads like these bother me at times.

    I am a master level random player. I can play all races pretty well. Z is my best, followed by P, then T. I am familiar with almost all matchups, and feel very comfortable with timings for all races. There are definitely times when all races are vulnerable in the early and mid game, and the good player will be able to scout, exploit, and make those times last longer for the opponent by good aggression and harass. Any master and above level player will be able to acknowledge timings, and if they feel they have fallen behind in some way, they will choose to pressure or make a risky economic move to try to regain the lead based off the situation.

    In my opinion, there might be some balance issues with the game, but macro ability IMO is NOT one of them for any of the three races. The only thing that determines macro ability is how you choose to play the game.

    GL HF!
     
  6. Makki

    Makki Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    18
    From:
    Denmark
    Well first of all this article is very old... so im not gonna say much about it
    but i'd like to ask you how much do you play starcraft and how good are you?
     
  7. Supernova

    Supernova New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    40
    Likes received:
    0
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Wisconsin
    Btw - @ quickvic

    T can't be underpowered when 24 of the top 25 grandmaster korean players are Terran as of today 07/21/11.

    Look for yourself... There isn't a zerg til rank 30..

    http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/kr
     
  8. quickvic

    quickvic New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    29
    Likes received:
    1
    Trophy points:
    0
    From:
    Bucharest
    @All - I stand corrected.

    I believe Goody show the power of terran tech out of two CCs, if played correctly (constant harass, timing push, great usage of the map features). This would be the demonstration:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NvjJrBaFh0

    Thank you all for you comments and my apologies for those that I upset. Cheers.

    P.S. I still feel it's a pity there are not that many nukes at this level, since it's a much faster tech than it was in BW.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011