History Nuts

Something about war that I've noticed, that has been repeated with lots of wars, is that we always seem to get the enemy leader in our sight but then don't give the order to kill. Hitler for instance was in a British spies eyes and could of been shot. Instead Britain said that's not sportsman like so they let him go and lots of people died because of that. Osama was in our sights but we let him go. Just a random thought now to get my thoughts off of the war on terrorism. According to my random trivia book one of Canada's most notorious muggers was a lady who would walk up to a man ask them for a cigarette and then grab their crotch while then searching their pockets. I never knew. Course now that I think about it I know very little about canada. Is Canada it's own country or still apart of Britain?

 

The imperialistic and evil american empire needs to get down, for too long have they enslaved and opressed my people, puppeted us with joke governments, implemented trade restrictions, invaded some of our countries and stept on our dignity. As they prostitue our dreams and dignity we shall prepare to bring them down.

Advocating justice, freedom and democracy, the imperialists have used their army to commit crimes and murders throught the globe, and supporting genocide regims and wars, increasing tensions and trying to invade other cultures with their rotten society....

They shall one day drown in their own blood...

 

I want to think your kidding but I don't think you are. I'm just going to contain my love for this country and ask what spawned these thoughts. Isn't every government guilty of that?

 

I live in south america, and have studied and seen enough to think like that, I think that USA needs to get rid of its imperialistic measures and start giving a crap about other countries or fall, and as they don´t seem to like the first option, hell, then we shall fight for our freedom and that of our people
you would be surprised to see how many people hates USA down here...

 

Wow, there is an amazing amount of unbiased opinion in this topic... (anyone who doesn't catch the sarcasm should leave now). Man I hope this topic gets back to its original intention.

 

I tried getting it back. I wanted to know some history of Canada. Anyone here know some history about it? The only thing I really know for sure is that The British settled it and we fought the French and Indian War somewhere near it..I think. I haven't been in history class since 2002/2003.

 

During the French Indian war, we fought near the border of Canada, but never actually crossed over. The Main stay of the fighting was in the north and Mississippe, can never spell that river right, valley.

 

That I didn't know. World History books cover the modern history of countries while the American History books cover from just before the Revolutionary War to the end of the Cold War. At least the ones I had did. Most history I learn is from watching history to reading my useless trivia books. Did you know that there was a man who, after America bought the all the area west of the Mississippi, wanted to take over it and call it the United Western States of America, or something like that. Apparently what did him in was that an American general, who was going to help him, got paranoid and ran out and told all the other generals.

 

Yes i remember that, i believe he was a general as well, but his partner got cold feet and lived. Its obvious no one knew how to plan a coup in the old days, they were quite silly.

 

Since someone on another thread wants to talk about it I'll say it here. When the Germans attacked Russia in WWII they slaughtered them at first. The names are rusty but I remember the Germans got close to Moscow so Stalin had every citizen in that area dig a huge trench and holes to force the German tanks to be unusable and to act as a line of defense. The Germans couldn't make it through the trench and started losing supplies because they gained more ground then the supplies to travel, up until that point. Winter came and then the Ill equipped Germans were forced back. They were forced make because of lack of supplies. That's how the Russian general was able to force them all the way back out of the Soviet Union. Then the Germans were being pressed on all sides because we had a foot in the door on the west with the Russians charging from the east on a counter attack. That is what I remember form World History class. You have objections feel free to place them here.

 

Pat of history is the interpretation, so unless this is meant to be just a fact of the day thread, we are going to have lots of 'biased opinions'.

And yes, Canada is it's own country.

 

I'm experimenting with how people want it. As long as I'm asked nicely I may be inclined to do that. So since I was asked nicely I'll make this a daily thread then. That way we can all be on the same page. So unless someone else has to say anything about the last topic I'll just pop in tomorrow for some history fact or question and people can discuss it for a day. Like Fenix's forgotten deep thought of the day.

 

I think you should just let the topic run off on whatever direction as long as it's on the history topic, it will go to what people want to discuss and move on when it's over.


Saying the Germans lost purely because of logistical reasons is just wrong, yes attacking the Soviet Union is a logistical nightmare but it's not like the Germans were unprepared, an extremely cold winter even by Russian standards helped of course, but you cannot ignore the Soviet role (gasp! the front was multisided? :O), relocation of the factories east and the nature of a planned economy being able to be geared for total war quickly helped in overwhelming the Wermacht and Soviet tactics (like fighting house for house in Stalingrad denying the German soldiers artillery support without the danger of hitting their own units) and strategy were in no way a small part. Hitlers fumbles also cannot be dismissed. Only citing logistics is a gross oversimplification and diminishes the significance of the Soviet victory.

 

@ Bral in post 30 - There was also the fact that Russians have historically been users of a scorched earth policy. Basically, they go into an engaged retreat, ie fighting, strip the land of all the nutrients, good, food, then burn it. The advancing army has to rely on their supply lines, which get increasingly longer (the USSR was insanely huge). Then winter sets in. Russian winters are some of the most brutal on the planet. The oil and gasoline literally froze in the Nazi jeeps.

On the flip side, the Siege of Stalingrad resulted in sickening losses of Russian civilian life.


If Hitler had not turned on Russia, the Axis would probably have one. They were also working feverishly towards the nuke, and I doubt that the Axis powers would've hesitated as much as the US did. To this day, the largest nuclear weapon is the product of USSR research (it's called the Tsar Bomba. Look it up, it's kinda cool really). Add this to the fact that the USSR was basically what China is today in terms of sheer size. They lost more people in the war than some small nations have total.

 

Actually after WWII was over we discovered that the Germany had been atleast 3 years away from a working atmoic bomb. Add to that to the fact that the only reason the Russians ever were able to gain nuclear technology in the first place because they stole it from the allies when they were allied. If the Germans had never turned on Russia then it would have been substantianlly more difficult to take over Germany, however once Japan was out of the picture Russia and Germany would have had to contend with the entirety of the U.S. forces and allied forces, and likely China's forces because it would have been the U.S. that had gotten rid of the Japanese.

In essence, I think if Germany hadn't turned on Russia, both countries would have fallen in a war that would have been drasticly longer.

 

Another major problem that the wehrmacht suffered for the whole war going up until 1944 was that Hitler was against a total war economy. The average German had no restrictions placed upon their lives as Hitler feared that the home front would collapse like it did in WW1 while countries like Britain and Russia were totally geared for war. Amazingly enough when Speer and Goebbels eventually won over Hitler war production increased around 150-200% even when the Americans were bombing the **** out of Germany. If Hitler had actually prepared for a war against Russia instead of just jumping on the chance he probably would have won (Though admittedly Hitler had already delayed the attack significantly by arguing for the capture of multiple cities). Especially considering the Germans wiped out the whole Russian army in the opening months of the war.

But the underlying reason Stalin succeeded was that Russia could afford to have 20:1 losses as the German army numbered only 2-3 million while Russia had 300 million people.

@Bralbers
You missed about 2 years there...what about Stalingrad =P

@Fenix
Germany's nuke project was a joke compared to the Manhattan project. The government hardly supported it (Hitler didn't even support the jet fighter until 1944). The massive centrifuges needed to make the materials would also have been obvious targets for the American bombers if the Nazi’s even had the resources to create them.

Edit :I was too slow ^

Basically Germany was an excellent example of how dictatorships do not always result in a more powerful country militarily.

 

Well guys from a special I saw, a bunch of scientists had the concept of the nuke while they were in Germany but they were turned away. When they came to America we found out and got the knowledge. I also just found out that the reason Hitler invaded Russia was because his generals were confused. Hitler listened to what his generals said and his generals said what they thought Hitler wanter to hear. So Hitler says can we invade, the generals thinks he wants to hear yes so they say yes; Hitler hears yes so he thinks they know best and declares war.

 

More time to prepare wouldn't have necessarily gave Germany a better chance, the Soviets themselves were expecting a 1942-43 attack, just unprepared for 41, a large portion of the Red Army was stretched across the front with Germany in occupied Poland, instead of back in defensible positions, a later barbarossa would've given the USSR a better footing.

Germany's nuclear program also suffered from a lack of heavy water, especially with allied raids on the facilities in Norway.

 

Barbarrossa failed due to german stupidity and the soviet capacity for resistance.

Initially, the germans had the tactical advantage of surprise, had better logistics, better tech and even had numerical superiority, as german forces were far more concentrated on the front than soviet forces on the area. The attack was initially a complete success, large number of soviet forces were captured and routed, the soviet western airforce was wipped out from the sky, the confusion among soviet commanders was total, and despite fierce resistance, the germans took the upper hand.

The german advance was halted by a number of causes, which can be tracked down to the failed italian invasion of Greece, which delayed Barbarossa for months, a lack of sufficient intelligence, and overconfidence, as the germans though the soviets would put on little resistance and that the slavic people were totally inferior, meaning a quick victory, also soviet technical capabilities were severely underestimated, and the germans were shocked when T-34 and KV tanks blew up their panzers. And the evacuated factories produced tons of weapons that killed their soldiers.

When the soviet resistance halted the german advance, and a general counteroffensive swept the front in the winter of 1941, despite anything Hitler said, the Soviet Union stood strong, and the fate of nazi germany was sealed for doom.