Horrible Terrible Irony

The treaty of Versailles was the major cause of this hatred, not straight racism. Even racism can be contributed to the breakdown of multi-ethnic empires until 'tidy' nation states following the first world war, this nearly ammounted to genocide in places like the former Ottoman Empire.

This is a Stalin fail, not a failure of the significance of the pact.

The invasion of Finland was viewed as highly important in case of foreign aggression, i don't have the numbers right now or the time but the Finish-Soviet borders were dangerously close to Leningrad and Moscow, further more the disaportionly heavy losses showed the huge vunerabilities of the Red Army and provided basis for the improvements in Soviet forces that the Allies would not have won without.

They were planning for the inevitable invasion from fascist powers.

Explained above why that was so incredible vital to Russian defense in the event of aggression

They fought Japan after the fall of Berlin, exactly on schedule (to the day) of the 'Europe first' agreement that focused most allied power on eliminating Germany from the war.

Not really relevant, given propaganda. Also this could be nullified in significance by the communist resistance fighters operating under German occupation supported by the USSR.

 

*facepalm* They were not planning to invade Germany, they were preparing for the German attack. The Soviets perfectly knew the Nazi plans.

The Finnish war had nothing to do with the pact, it was before the pact!, but it was one of the actions taken to prepare the country for the war- the Soviets wanted some land north of Leningrad, and they offered the Finns more fertile land in the east, since losing Leningrad, the country's second largest city, would have been devastating. The Finns however, refused. And 1,200,000?? NO WAY. This number is impossible, show me some proof.

After the pact, there wasnt much fighting- Soviets took the Baltic states and eastern Poland (Or western Belarus, since in the Soviet-Polish war of 1920- Poland was actually a larger threat to the USSR for quite a while).

There were collaborators in every country. The thing is, Germany never had any chance to win the war about 6 months after it began, since their whole plan relied on the rebellions of the different nationalities and breakup of the Union, and some sort of coup d'etat in Moscow. Really, the whole war was a massive gamble, in every way.

''March half way to Moscow''? What about Blitzkrieg?

If the generals didn't mobilize earlier, of course he shot them! I doubt a pincer movement Blitzkrieg was expected, it's a bit ridiculous to blame this on Stalin.

About the Soviet-Japanese war:

In 1939, the Japanese, already in control of large parts of China, especially Manchuria, from the earlier Sino-Japanese war, crossed the Mongolian border. Since Mongolia was a close Soviet ally, the Soviets went there to stop them, at the battle of Khalkin Gol. The Japanese were defeated and a peace treaty was signed, which freed the Soviets from a two-front war.

Later, in 1945, the planned Soviet offensive took out the largest Japanese army, the Quantung army, in Manchuria. Really, a lot of this is forgotten.

 

They knew the Nazis would attack, but they did not except it to be as soon as it was.

Nothing to do with the pact? It was one of the countries to be devided by it. Ofc the Finns would refuse, they don't want to leave thier homes and would rather defend it.

What's so hard about the USSR having an army of 1.2mil? They lost 10+million in the earlier years which apparently didn't hurt thier industry. Also, 1.2mil was obviously easy for the USSR to make, considering it lost about10mil forces during the years fighting Germany.

 

''Divided''? What do you mean ''divided''? There would be no division! The Soviets needed that strip of land north of Leningrad, now also reinforced by the Mannerheim line, which was of great danger to the city, and it proved itself in 1941 when Finland attacked. After the start of the War, Finland was allied with the Nazis. And I correct myself- the Sov-Fin war was a couple of months after the pact, but Finland was not included.

What do you mean, ''whats so hard''? You just come up with ridiculous numbers like 1.2 million or 100 million dead just because it isn't so hard to imagine? GPW Soviet total millitary deaths- 8.65 million. They are not some absurd estimate or guess, its archive information.

 

I meant 1.2mil as in thats how many USSR troops were used in Finland, not how many died. I never siad thats how many died, you just interpreted it that way. Also, the 8.65 mil, is that including the millions that died in Nazi POW camps?

Also, where did you hear that Finland attacked first? The way I've always heard it was that the USSR wanted the western areas not taken over by Nazi Germany and attacked Finland. The Fins defended themselves using camouflage and superior marksmanship.

But hey, thats what my US schooling had taught me, which I'm sure you have many issues with.

 

No, I understood it correctly.

Yes, the real enlisted servicemen. Thats how the count it. Civilian camps were different, they also had partisans.

I never said the Finns attacked first. The cause of the war was the need of the Soviets to dismantle the Mannerheim line which posed a threat to Leningrad, and this was achieved. Later in GPW, Finns, allied with Germany, attacked again. And huh, western areas?

 

Did you guys do history or something?

Or are you like really old?

Or do you just read up on all this stuff?



Cause a sc2 forum is the last place i suspected to find people well versed in such topics

 

Wow this has gone off topic.

I'm sorry for mentioning The Winter War before.... Ultimately Hitler didn't have a hope for succeeding in invading Russia because Germany wasn't properly on a war footing. I only mentioned Stalin's screw up at the start (he had too many to count during the war) because it showed the pact relied on good generals and pragmatic leaders. Stalin personally didn't think Hitler would invade so early, so he damaged their initial defence.

We should really have a thread purely for Historical debate because every time we have a discussion about politics it turns into nit picking through a historical period (Always to do with Russia >>)...

Anyway, What happened in Gaza does not in any way reflect the holocaust, Discuss.

 

Considering this has now gone completely off topic it's now locked.

 

Also cause this is getting nowhere.