Is Terran giving up on Air??

I tihnk the vulture in SC1 was very weak and underused, and Blizzard is trying to make a replacement that's more useful.

The drawbacks on the cobra are that it's pretty slow, i think slower than a stimmed mainre

 

vultures were my favorites dont ever call them weak

 

vulture underused? have you seen any tvp games? it's arguably the most important unit in that match up

 

yea it's a shame to see vultures leave, but i think the cobra is just dumb. It's supposed to be a "tank killer" but it doesn't look like it. It's puny and so is the attack. A Transparent type ray thing. Looks weaaaaak.

that's my 1000th post?

 

I see all your point there.... especially what I heard from you, zergling. It does sound like I matched up pro toss with newb terran.... but most of cases that I mentioned, that isn't true.

If you have not read my previous posts, I also didn't include Protoss's vast selection of magic units. While I didn't include tanks, banshees, etc that are crucial to Terrans, I also didn't include High and Dark Templars, Collosus[srry for mispelling] and Observers. While I didn't include Thor, I didn't include more or less of Immortals that can easily bounce off those huge attackers, and same goes for Tanks. While I didn't include Marines and Reapers, I didn't include DT, which can easily and effortlessly destroy them. Also, if HT comes into all this, it just makes Protoss's situation more likely to win. I didn't include Nomad, the Terran's great support/magic/detector, but I also didn't include Twilight Arcon, Protoss's great heavy assult/magic/ and front liner unit. So I evened out all the scenarios based on what units I didn't include. So even with the Terrans having few more units, the result would be around the same...... plus, if the Terran users are smart enough to bring out units apart from the basic units I mentioned, they are alrdy at higher skill lv than Protoss player that they are facing, so it makes uneven Pro/Newb situation for Protoss. That is my main reason being not including so much units. I'm sorry about not clearing that out.

Also, Because Cobra is that strong as you kindly mentioned to me, the more likely it is going to be revised. It isn't likely for Cobra to stick to that much damage without changing both hp or building factor. So that was the reason behind me not using the damage rate in numbers. That is also my reason behind not using Cobra as well, because it isn't explained as much in the game. Until the damage points are finalized, I cannot use them in my explaination, nor can anyone use it as a counter heavy air without meeting resistance.

With that said, are you going to tell me that BC has more damage rate than Carriers? I think you are mistaking my definition of "power". I am meaning purely as atk strength, not the health or armor points. The major drawback to Carriers is that it is easily destroied and it cannot defend itself, meanwhile BC has powers to use more magical abilities. However, considering atk rate from SC1, which is 8X8 in reletivly fast rate for Carriers and 25 dmg rate for BC. Yamato and plasma torpido gives an edge for BC, yes, but there is a talk that Carriers will have strong Ground fire Shield like Tempest, so we just have to wait and see that in action.

OH and MotherShip deal........ I'm not really sure wht Tier means, but I think it relates to what class is each unit is in. I can assure you that there isn't any in Terran aresenal that can be compared to MotherShip apart from BC, which is known to take down MotherShips if grouped in groups of 2 without support. Thors? My opinion is that it cannot catch up to MotherShip if it keeps on moving. In both damage wise and Hp wise, plus ability wise, it is sure to loose to one on one combat. Even with supporting units, it is much likely for Protoss troops to surrond MotherShip with vast units than Terran players supporting Thor, mainly because I think MotherShip will cost way more to put it into the field, plus the time which it can be summoned. Thor's ability to be able to be manufactured by SCV gives edge on mass production, and with those factors counted, it will be less likely to be supported more than Protoss users do to their MotherShip in the mass combat timing.

Also...... the fleeing scinario........ you are forgetting the fact that Pheonix is faster than Vikings in most cases, [please correct me if I'm wrong] Pheonix can easily outflank them and use overload or just attack. Plus Stalkers will be litterally Stalking through Terrains. I think Vikings will go down as fast as Golioaths in that case.

I think everyone is kinda making me a bad guy by saying I didn't include units. But I'm also considering that factor as I write. I think Protoss will have much better time attacking any Terran units now because of no LockDown....... and I'm not even including High Temp. in the attack scenarios..... if anything looks wrong, tell me, but don't go all out saying that I didn't include some units, because I'm trying my best to exclude as much units as possible to avoid Protoss from winning, which I think will happen if the units when all out against eachother..... magic or no magic.

Anyhow, thanks for criticism and cooperation from all. I really appriciate it and I really think I'm getting my facts straight. Thank you for letting me understand Terran so much better...... this will really help in the upcoming SC2 battle against Terran users.

 

My God are you sent by some kind of Protoss supporting group? j/k ;D
but it does sound like you gave almost every Terran unit a bad name,though.

 

Lol.... it kinda does.... I read my own post and it does...... although I did it unintensionally.....

But then again, you can give bad name for almost every Protoss units too, can't you???

And..... no.... I'm not in some kind of Protoss Supporting group....... but I'd love to be in on lol

 

I mena underused as in most normal games. EVen if they are good in TVP, what about TVZ or TVT? Mines are good, but I've never really seen anyone use it. Sure pros wil, but i'm talking about just regular gamers. Most people will go for tanks and goliath, won't they? ANyways, that wasn't my point. I'm just saying, the cobra is supposed to be better and used more.

About the stalker and pheoniix and stuff, Don't you think that in a pro vs pro, the terran player would only transform half of their vikings? I don't understand what they'd be doing, jsut haveing their vikings floating there, doing nothing. They're most likely going to be after a unit or going for a base. So just because a few stalkers come up, they'd just suddenly transform all of their vikings and forget about their initial target? I don't know about anyone else, but I personally would transform half to deal with it, unless it was a big group of stalkers, but then wouldn't I have a big group too? Or if i didn't, then that means I'd have a big army, and I'd attack then, while his force of stalkers(probably his main army regiment) was distracted with my few vikings. Anyways, unless he had a map hack and knew I was about to raid or something, how would he know to get air and stalkers beforehand?

Anyways, forget about that. That's off topic

What I'm trying to say, is, Vikings are for support or flanking and raiding. They aren't built to be your main force. Maybe that's why you think terran air is weak. Because it doesn't have much of a main air foce unit? I think everything is very specialized, and two of their air units are for raiding and support. Battleruisers and ground seems to be the main force now. Terran air is weak at beginning, I guess, because wraith was pretty good at a Tier two level, and now Terrans don't really have a Tier two main air unit. Hm. BTW, Tiers are kind of like the levels of your army. Tier 4 is like the mothership, Tier3 is like strong units, like BCs and carriers, Tier 2 are usually your mechs and basic air, and Tier1 is your basic infantry. For Zerg, units you can get with a hatchery is tier one, lair is tier 2, and hive is tier three.

Okay my point: Terran air is just more specialized and until BC's they shouldn't be your main force, because banshees are ATG only, Vikings are ATA or GTG only, and Predators are ATA only. BC is the only ATG+ATA unit you get for terran. WIth Bc's, though it's very good air, because Intercept mode + Bc's attack + Nomad defense and insta heal = very good air. You have the blocking predators, defensive matrix, and instant heal for defense, and the Battlecruiser, its abilties, and EMP for offense. Then you have the Vikings and Banshees raiding and destroying the enemy's base.

I think Protoss might have a little trouble heading their way.

 

I would but I'm too lazy to write so much of it.

And I liked the way Zergling puts it all,and its sad Terran doesn't have wraith anymore as Tier 2 main air force.

 

that's a really good analysis ZeR[g]LiNg owerup:

 

That's a goon anaylisis. I would've used it if I was a Terran user, but I probably won't, mainly because I'm not.

Well, I suppose we are in good argument there..... nevertheless, I would still call Terran's air weak even in later stages. Like you said, there is alot of specialized units now, but there is no ATA units that can ever hope to fend off Protoss areal units. So I'll try my best to support my argument by countering our opinion..... I hope that is ok.... also, note that this is my bias and my opinion, so incase I get few things wrong, please tell me about it.

Terran air is really specialized, and that is true to the point that it makes no sense. Sure, Banshee is good attacker for grouped ground units, and I think it will give an edge against Protoss, which uses massive army techinque alot..... I know, I used 35 Zelots to take over a well defended base before.......
However, I don't think Terrans have that good of a ATA fighters now. Predators/Vikings[air] isnt' nowhere near Pheonix/WarpRay mix........ however, I must admit that Predator's intercept missile is an awsome techinque, but with Overload of Pheonix, it kind of negates that effect off. Plus WarpRay isn't a missle, nor is a projectile-based energy cannon. Its just a Ray, like it is stated. So I don't think Predators can fend it off, which returns the favor to Vikings. Vikings cannot really defest WarpRays damage wise, and if one WarpRay targets one Vikings seperately, Vikings don't have much chance of defeating WarpRays.... plus I'm sure with overload ability, not all projectiles will be intercepted by Predators.... although that might just be my opinion there.

And even with Banshee's abilities, you cannot forget the power of Protoss ground units, which was superior to begin with since SC1. Since you introduced your Nomad into equation, I'll be intorducing Protoss's superior magic units as well. Nomads and BC is a very good target for Twilight Arcon, mainly because of feedback ability that Arcon has now. with max or 250, possibly before Nomads or BC can even unlease their attack, it might be taken away by Twilight Arcons. Plus, if HT freezes BC, then the air takes out Vikings and Predators, there is nothing that can support BC.
I didn't forget Snipe ablity of Ghosts, which I think will be a bad against HT, as well as other units...... 150 dmg against one unit.... that's one hit KO for HT right there..... along with cloak, Ghosts can knock out HT in no time....... of course, I think most Protoss user will know this and counter with equal measures.
Ghost, because of their magical content+reletively weak HP, is perfect one hit KO by Twilight Arcon. Also, DT can easily target Ghosts as well. Few Stroms can also be used by HT before they die, which will make excellent damage to both air and ground around it.
Because of Immortal's excelent shield protection, it is most likely that Immortals will be able to counter most seige attacks coming from Terran, such as SeigeTanks or Thor. I read it that Immortal's hardened shield only allows 10 dmg at a time for each seige hit given. I'm sure there is restriction to how much hit you can take before hardened shield melts off, but I'm sure they would've taken care of the Thor and Tanks by then with little casualties. Marines, I think is an issue that can be so easily solved. DT and Storm is just a quick solution..... but also Zelot works wonders against them as well.

I think I'm off topic by insulting every Terran Ground units.... sorry about that....

Anyhow, I think I explained earlier in the form that Vikings cannot even do Raiding correctly. I think raiding should be performed by Banshees because of their ability to cloak and massive area damage. Viking isn't fit for raiding, and here is a reason why.... I'm reastating this in different words from previous statement I made before.

TVT:
Viking raid is unadvisable because of Raidar towers. Terran user can tell if they are coming from flank or not. Also, you will probably have Planetary fortress wherever there is important location is, and buildings are probably located within Fortress's protection range. Also, Missile turrents will attack them before they even hit the ground, and even then, most Terran users put at least a SeigeTank in their base, so raiding is pretty much gone...... since Vikings, as stated by Blizzard, isn't fit to fight against ground or air devoted fighters, such as Tanks. Even without Tanks, smart Terran users might use Reaper's demo ability against the Vikings. Just before Vikings land, Reapers plant demo charge on the ground, and it will dethonate as soon as[or might be about a second after] the Vikings land. Vikings will have little to no time to avoid the boom and most will take heavy damage or die, and Reapers alone can finish the job. Bunkers will also do thier share of defending as well, with marines in them, it could mean the end for Vikings before they hit the ground.

TVP:
Here is main problem with this situation and using Vikings....... and its called Zelots. Zelots are devoted GTG unit with charge ability to attack ranged units. Zelots can just stand where Vikings will land and finish them off there..... especially when Zelots are upgraded. WarpRays are another, and although they come later in the game than Viking, WarpRays does pack a punch against Vikings, especially when they are so helpless when they are transforming.
For Immortals and Stalkers, Vikings are littaly child's play. They can knock it down as fast as they land. Also, the Phase Cannon's ability now allows them to switch places. which will be ideal for Vikings while they take their time to transform. By the time Vikings can attack, they will probably be surrounded by number of Protoss units and defense structures, which isn't at all wise move.


So with these odds, I think Vikings are not fit for raiding either, and I think I proved many times that they are not that good of a supportive fighter. Now with that toy aside, Terrans only have Predators, Nomad, and BC as their main air attackers...... against Carriers,Pheonix,and WarpRays....... and with ground units, possibly...... well, I'm sure Protoss's units will be busy with Thor and other seige attackers up to the point.
With that said, I still believe Terran air is very weak. And with such weak areal units, Protoss and upcoming Zerg can easily dominate the Air. Protoss can use their power to warp in units from place to place using Phase Prisms, and they can even bring some probes and establish a def there.... that will take time to get rid of. Without superior air units, Protoss can devist more strategies agianst Terran, and Terran has some tough time to defend them......

I have more to write about, but I have to go.... I'll read the next opinion and write more on that. Thanks for explaining further about Terrans.

 

my technique with vultures: create a mine field near your base and then plant random mines and some mines near every cristal/gas gathering place

 

yea charon boosters where teh shiz
i still dont wanna think they've scrapped goliaths.

 

you make constructive posts, LordofAngels owerup:

 

Yeah, you have good points. Just some facts you didn't seem sure about/didnt state-
-Immortal's hardened shield wears off once their normal shield is gone
-Feedback damage health, too, so yeah, that's pretty good counter
-Intercept mode also shoots off lasers, though not sure what effect it'd have on warp ray attack or collosus

Okay, with that, I agree with everything you've said, and really I think terran IS weak, but you have to take into account the amount of units you'll most likely have, the cost, the damage , HP, etc.

As of right now, I lose in this argument, because I really have to say Terran air doesn't have much of an anti-air, but again, you have to take into account the damage and HP of the vikings, and how many you could have at any certain time.

My main argument, though, was that anyone with just a bit of strategical knowledge will first distract someone with another force before raiding. This way all of the player's attention and units are pulled into the battle and only static defenses are left. Terran are very updated with their new defenses and detectors, but with the help of a few other units and micro, a player could take out turrets and such with reaper mines, then come in with vikings to destroy uildings and units the reapers wouldn't be able to handle.

I personally think that if I was to use air, it'd be with ground units like tanks and marines(a main attack force) Alone off to the side(a rading or flanking force) or a huge fleet(a main attack force). I would personally never, in a normal game, go for a huge fleet, as this would be wiped out instantly by the works of pheonixes and warp rays. If mixed with ground, any Ground opposition is decimated by the terran's ground force, like tanks. Then the air and ground could work together to take care of enemy fliers. A small air force, though, would undoubtedly have some plasma torpedos and banshees.

Versus Protoss, they would know oyu were coming, unless they placed an observer there, which you could destroy and move to another position. Versus terran, Sure they would know you're coming, but what are they going to do? Instantly pull out a few missile turrets and upgrade their CC? Of course, what if they had enough time? But then maybe the main force would attack, and the enemy would spend all of their money on units. Do you see my point? You really can't predict what's going to happen without hard facts and stats.

Terran air shuold not be your main air force until you have BCs, but even then, it's not very good. Unless the air units were to be stronger. But we don't really know exactly how strong they will be.

I've kind of made myself a little getaway hole in case I lose this argument, which I undoubtedly will, because there are not enough SURE stats

Whatever, Terran air is very specialized except the BC

 

one thing to take into account is that the bc in sc2 will become available earlier than in sc1 as less buildings are required to start producing the bc. also the tech lab add-on can be pre-built

 

Very true, you just have to rush to get there quickly and focus on defense till then. It does seem like the games will be much shorter, since there will be less turtling and tehing up is easier

 

teching up is easier as a terran, the protoss tech up at the same rate, i hoped they added new turtling options

 

I suppose I didn't mention those things. I noticed that feedback also reduces Hp.... believe me, when there is PVP my favorite thing to do it to have 10 dark arcons to dominate field of magic...... after loosing about 25 HT, they stop raiding your base..... funny thing that can happen to any Protoss players, don't you think?

Well, I can tell you've made very well developed points there, zergling. Vikings' raiding tactics does have some advantages. Also, I very much agree on Terran's newfound ground Superiority. Tanks+Thor+Banshee+well developed supportive fighters= death of alot of zelots and battlefield smoking with Protoss souls. I can also see you point there in raiding tactics.

In TVT it would be alot harder to detect the Vikings in time.... however, I think Mar Heaven[or whatever they call the manufacturing place that makes Reapers] is solution to all that. Reapers are very easily made. So if you make sure that you have one at least in stregic point of the bases, Reapers can quickly respond when Vikings arrive, so you get little to no damage. Also, I think most cases the main focal point of most bases will already have PF ready for defense. I won't say Vikings' attacks will not be effective to all bases, but I don't think it will make any good suprise raiders like what you can do with other units...... something like Banshee or ex-protoss unit, Reavers.

Also.... that is a heck of a good point. Hopefully there will be more restriction of premaking Tech Lab or something that will go faster for Protoss as well. Although.... as soon as you can make WarpGates, you can put up a good fight even without too much tech done. Protoss's new warp system is so awsome that I cannot wait to see....

But I'm really exited about new Zerg units...... what I'd really want is more explosives for Zergs....... like exploding Ultrarisk.... or somthing......[dunno spelling for ultra, srry] although.... that will take so much money to reproduce....... it can be like a nuke for Zerg players! That would be so awsome....

 

I don't see terran air as weak. You've got banshees and bc with plasma torpedos which will completely own ground units, especially when combined with siege tanks splash dmg and thor artillery bombardment.

ATA may be the only problem for the terran. You have vikings in their air form and predators for your anti air needs. You can also use battlecruisers yamato gun, but that is not too much reliable. The vikings dont seem too effective but I think it all depends on how expensive they are to produce. How strong terran anti air is mostly depends on the predator unit (has anyone seen them in action?). Then main weakness of terran air I see right now is no splash damage vs air units. This could be a big problem when playing against zerg.

Also, another big problem for terrans is that they have no ground unit that is effective against air units (like the old goliath). Now, if you want your vikings to fight air you have to transform them into air units and thus expose them to strong attacks from pohenixes, predators and other ATA attacks. In SC1 you had a choice: either build a ground unit to counter air (goliath) or build an air unit to counter air (valkyre or wriath). Now you will always have to use air units to counter air units with terran, unless thors have somekind of really impressive GTA attacks.