Micro strategy's Diminishing?

An Anti-Armoured Ground bonus instead of Air? I guess it's viable, but I don't see any need for it, other than for the sake of having it. Zerg definitely need the Anti-Air bonus much more than they need Anti-Ground. In my opinion, they've pretty much got Anti-Ground covered. I mean, Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Lurkers and Ultralisks, and they're just the exclusive Ground-to-Ground attackers. All attacking Zerg units save the Corrupter can attack Ground, so I don't think there's a need for an additional bonus for the Hydralisk, especially if that would restrict its Anti-Air capabilities.

Also, keep in mind that not having the same bonus against Ground doesn't make the Hydralisk useless against it. Ten base damage is much higher than in StarCraft1, due to the old Hydra dealing Explosive damage. In fact, it could also be argued that the Hydralisk has always been skewed towards taking on Air units, because Explosive damage only deals full damage to Large targets, and while there were a large number of Small and Medium sized Ground targets, all Air targets, except the Mutalisk, were Large. So a bonus against Armoured Air units, which I believe is, similarly, everything but the Mutalisk, doesn't mean it's hopeless against Ground. I mean, twelve of these beauties, which won't be hard to muster, will be doing a hundred and twenty damage per shot to all Ground units. That's hardly a weak attack, particularly for such a cheap unit.

Also, keep in mind that, although coming later, the Lurker deals about double damage against Armoured targets, with siege range, too. They might not be too early in the tech tree, but it's not as though Zerg are missing something.

Overall, I don't see any reason why you couldn't, but we're really not in any situation to say which bonus would be best, if any, and particularly if it would impact so heavily on Zerg's Anti-air. The only bonus I see a problem with at the moment, is Roaches, due to their overuse in Zerg versus Zerg matches.

 

Oh ok, I didnt know the + dmg against armored of the lurker, I think that helps a lot generally. That helps a lot. I just hope hydralisks still will be viable as an all-around unit. Perhaps the fact even though it dealt explosive dmg stil was usefull in scbw will probably make it as or more usefull in sc2.

The Roaches are a problem probably. Making the attack light instead of biological will probably dont help that much (as you pointed out, they still counter zerglings/hydralisks/drones). But am I the only thinking that good Hydralisks micro (longer range probably a bit faster) and some zerglings with speed will fix this? The Roaches are are effective, but If you get like 10 Hydralisks you can one shot them (im refering to the tile of this thread ). So I dont see them generally as being a problem in ZvZ.
But perhaps they will be overused if they dont get a light attack. Else we can make their bonus smaller!?!?

So this time you convinced be with the Hydralisk, and these states seems fine:

Hydralisk 75 minerals 25 gas
Ground attack: 10
Air attack: 10 (+6 against armored
(which are all air units but the Mutalisk, Observer, Phoenix and the Raven)

So right now it seems that ZvZ will be very interesting (mutalisks not getting countered by hydralisks or the othter way around (in bw mutalisks countered hydralisks due to explsive dmg of the hydralisks); (hydralisks probably countering roaches but not a hard-counter, and they cost gas); They only problem could be lategame were roaches are very strong due to there non-gas cost, so making their bonus to only to light could help, but I dont know if they are to weak then. Perhaps lategame cracklings counter them!?

 

There is no unit named cracklings, furrer. But late game, I see the Mutalisk being a good counter for roaches in late game. Seeing how roaches have no air attack, a group of 8 Mutalisk could kill off a group of roaches. Unless there is some hydralisks. Then it won't work. But looking at the tech tree it looks like lurkers come in late game. They should be able to counter them for late game but not any sooner.

 

maybe, blizzard did say that lings counter Roaches, til Roaches hit a certain mass, then it takes a lot more lings to kill them because while not all the lings are able to attack the Roaches do to limited space around the Roaches, the Roaches are able to attack the lings without so much of a problem because of their range.

he is talking about Zerglings with both upgrades, Zerglings with movement speed upgrades are often called speedlings, and Zerglings with both movement and attack speed upgrades are often called cracklings do to how its like they are on crack.

 

I gotta agree with you on that one .

Well the game will get balanced by the time it comes out, so theirs nothing to fear. If anything they can adjust the game at anytime with patches, just look at starcraft 1! > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4ijwtGCaRg

 

Woah. I just realised how much this has deviated from the original conversation. For example, this is in the Terran board.

The Roach's Biological bonus aside, I think everything's pretty set. Until we're shown otherwise, I'm pretty sure the Roaches would act as a nice counter to Hellions, and some Baneling ambushes could be pretty easy to set up, provided you don't let them get flamed with the Hellions are being microed around above them.

As for Terran, with the Marauder and Hellion, there seems to be enough micro in relation to their standard attacking units. Marauders can slow down attackers, and are just as fast as Marines, so most players should be able to get a fair bit of micro out of the Marine-Marauder combo. Hellions are just like the Vultures of old, except with a linear attack now, which could potentially open up more 'microing' opportunities, but that would be little more than just positioning on whichever side is best. Ghost's have Snipe now, as well as EMP, so looks to be an active spellcaster, and the same goes for the Nomad.

I'd say micro's pretty set, and seeing how this conversation deviated into a discussion about Zerg counters, I'd say Terran's in a pretty neat spot. Hellions definitely have massed Zerglings or Banelings licked, Siege Tanks still one-shot Roaches if I remember correctly, and the Thor has a devastating Area of Effect attack to take care of any Mutalisks, which even out-ranges the Brood Lord. I'd definitely be going for Infestors against Terran, but even then they've got one of the most versatile Detectors with Scanner Sweep.

 

Yeah, Terran has neat counters. Terran also got some interesting micro strategy's (again, I refer to the funny theadname). Interesting match-up. Again im awaiting Beta to see how "balanced" it is. Probably we will have to do the same with ZvZ.

 

ok this has anoyed me throught out reading these 3 pages.
the answer to everything is Mutas.

you get mutas about the same time as roachs. plus roach only attacks ground. (so if you're going roaches and hes going roachs, then you want to switch to Mutas Asap!)
Same for Helions, Mutas rape them because the Helions can't attack them and have to run to defences of their base.

 

I think the beggining of this discussen was made when the roaches still was tier 1.5.

You are right that with the build now, mutas could be a choice, but Hydralisks have been made much stronger against units like the Mutalisk. An interesting battle could be Roaches + Hydralisks vs Mutalisks + Zerglings/a few Banelings.

 

A battle like that could be a very liable Zerg battle. And a very interesting the outcome would be. I guess it would come out to be how open the place is and how many units are there. And ok sure even if the other Zerg went roaches you could do a defnesive roll unit you have mutas (in that build) instead of who has a better eco and has more units on the battle field (of course if you went build up to mutas you would Probly get contained pretty fast but you would soon break out with mutas and maybe a small hydra ling bane group with a huge thing of roaches.

ZvZ is going to get interesting if we can get past massing roaches!!!

 

Yeah, and a lot of micro strategys too (we have to keep this on-topic )

 

I thnk the Terran aren't havng that much micro because they are more powerful and more comparable to SC1 toss then Terran. They have a very defencive and expanding roll as a race in SC2 tipicly he Zerg fast expand before there's units and has units spawning from it by the time crap is flung at them. And the Terran build it and then transfer with a securing force of marines.

Plus since they se pretty powerful of course the micro strays would start to dwindle towards late game easily.

 

Micro potential for non spellcaster Terran units
Activated Abilities: Battlecruiser, Thor, Reaper, Marine
Switchable Abilities: Vikings, Banshees, Siege Tanks
Autocast Abilities: Medivac, Marauder for all intents and purposes.
Kiting: Hellions, Reapers

Overall, I'd say there is plenty of potential for micro.

 

You put it that way then yea I guess they still have a lot.

 

Hmm, you may have a valid point. I'm only concerned that while the Viking is essentially a more mobile version of the Goliath, the cost doesn't justify it's entire value. Also, Vikings aren't meant to be the ultimate unit, it trades it's lack of ground damage for greater air damage and improved mobility, hence compromises like any other unit in the game. Let's not forget that the viking can evade potentially damaging ground units such as the siege tank and immortal, improving it's battlefield longevity. Plus, the Terran Banshee is designed to replace the Wraith, and i don't think it's a fair assessment to compare Vikings with it since, it IS a dedicated Air to Surface Unit. By the way, the Viking actually DOES MORE damage against air units on a relative basis. With Maximum upgrades, the Goliath does a Full 32 Damage against Heavily armored Air units, Viking however, can do 10+10 Bonus against armored MULTIPLY by 2. This essentially translates to 40 Damage, outperforming the fully upgraded goliath by 4 damage WITHOUT any upgrades. One possible weakness with the viking is the lack of attack range seen in Charon Boosters for the Goliath.

Also, terran's aren't exactly moving rocks.. they have 'normal' speed, and Marauders are probably the best Unit addition since the Immortals. You probably have used the firebat often, but good riddance do that unit. Marauders are really beefed up and can withstand 120 damage.. making it a solid early game support unit. Don't forget the Marauder is not exactly 'Slow', it posses a 'Normal' movement speed, making it on par with zerglings and Marines in the early game. Also, it's damage output is by far the most potent during early games, with an additional 10 damage, against Armored units. Finally, Marauders can slow opponents, making them ideal against melee units. What else is there to complain about?

Technically, Terrans have their own 'medics', it's just been replaced by the Medivac. It's actually essential, since a medic cannot keep up with faster units such as the Reaper or SCV to a certain extent. Also, it has a faster healing rate, allowing it to preserve the longevity of your units. Let's not forget that it's air, therefore it is no longer vulnerable to Siege Tank 90mm Cannons that usually devastate any gound unit. There's a good reason for the absence of lockdown. Firstly, lockdown was introduced because Terrans didn't have adequate 'LARGE ground unit counter' except for the unwieldy siege tank. Thus, the marauder was iincluded to offset this weakness. This made the ability redundant, while i do agree that lockdown should still be around to stop those pesky air units.

Last thing, Hellions are formidable in terms of damage output. Hellions are possibly the greatest raider in the game, since they can damage 3 units in ONE, instant hit, therefore, one helion can easily wreck havoc on your workers if left unchecked for a matter of seconds. They can also be upgraded seperately with high capacity barrels, allowing them to dish even more damage out, and it is markedly tougher than a vulture by 15 Hit points. However, i probably have to agree at the fact that it's not quite useful since the Vultures did have a faster build time, cost less and most importantly; have access to those godly spider mines. That essentially ruined my usual early game playing style. -_-

 

Terrans have been made less "micro intensive" because they have become the most powerful race in SC2 .
However, if you want micro, they have plenty of special abilities - more than any other race btw -.

No, seriously, they are insanely "too good" compared to the two other races.

 

alex, that will all be balanced out by release. blizzard wouldn't release sc2 if there was a "most powerful" race.

 

Yup, sure, I do hope so otherwise i'm back to SC1

 

do you honestly think that would happen?

 

No, I expect nothing less then perfection,
Jk I expect nothing less then a awesome game that will be played world wide. But I still feel like I would rather play SC1 with SC2 graphics.

Well I guess there's always the editer and ums.