Morals

To Christians, the Bible is the error-free word of God. The Bible is not the work of men -- it is God's word to his creation. To reinforce this fact, there are over 4,000 places in the Bible where it says things like, "Thus says the Lord." [ref] The Bible itself refers to its author in a number of places. For example, in 2 Timothy 3:16 the Bible says:

All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

To them, it is very much meant to be taken seriously. And to claim that it was meant metaphor would render said person, not a christian at all.

But regardless, i fail to see the metaphor or hidden meaning in slavery, sacrifice, and sexism. You cant just convienently ignore those parts and claim the rest is a metaphor and still call yourself a christian.

It really is quite amazing when you think about it. We take Jesus, the Ten Commandments, heaven and hell completely for granted. Nearly every person in America has heard of them, and few would question their existence. The place where these core concepts originate is the Bible. Without the Bible, these concepts would not exist. The Bible has a gigantic impact on the lives of people around the world. The only reason it has this impact is because Christians believe that God is the author.

 

Personally I think if God had a message for me he'd invite me over for tea. I am a Christian though, and I take exception to you saying what we believe. As has been said beefore. The ones who believe that the Bible is 100% accurate word of God, not to be interpreted anyway other than literally, are just the devout orrthodox Christians. Most of us believe it is open to interpretation, and you're just an idiot if you think there aren't any mistakes when you consider it's been translated a few times.

Also, being "god-breathed" does not make scripture any less of a metaphor. Also take care of the translations. Some translations say that the scriptures were inspired by God. The only part of that verse that is actually consistant, is the notion that the bible should be used to show us how to live our lives.

 

Yes, only minority of people kills with that I agree.
Stealing? Not so much, it may not be majority, but there are plenty of people who steal, not just gangsters, but shoplifters or just someone snatching a stapler from work. Just a stapler, but it is stealing all the same.

As for racists, there may be less of them with time, but there are still plenty of people who are to some extent racist. Add to that people who don't tolerate others based on different factors, like people not tolerating gays, hating on "metals" etc. I think you'll find a lot "fanatic Christians" in that ctegory, no?

There's also lying, you may claim to be honest, but how many other people do you know that don't lie?

 

So you agree that mankinds falliblity has rendered many mistakes in the bible.

So you agree there are mistakes. You agree that the Bible contains no tamper-proof seal. If we suspect that any one sentence in the Bible might have been randomly inserted by primitive men without God's approval, then every single sentence in the Bible now comes under suspicion. It does not matter whether any of the Bible might have been written by God. Because we are uncertain and have no way to prove it one way or another, we must assume that primitive men wrote every sentence of the Bible. Because of the uncertainty, we must throw out all of the sentences. If primitive men could have written any sentence, we must assume that they wrote the entire Bible. We have no other choice. The Bible is an all-or-nothing proposition.

Which completely collapses any remanining (if any) credibility that the bible has.

With this in mind, and the fact that we dont need it for moral guidance.

Why do you follow it?

 

Why do you believe what you believe? I know you believe something because you have been judging God based on it.

I was raised a Christian, and so far haven't had any reason to switch to a different belief system. The "love your neighbor as yourself' bit seems to be working just fine for me.

That said, remember that I mentioned, not all of our morals come from the bible, and most of them are society's constructs completely divorced from the bible. I don't remember the Bible telling us that sexual innuendo, and slang terms for excrement are bad, yet ***** is censored. Morals are just a set of rules the same as laws. I follow most of them for the same reason I follow the law, it keeps me in good standings with people, and keeps me out of trouble.


On whether the Bible is true or not, doe it really matter? Regardless of who wrote the Bible, not killing and stealing from people is generally a good idea, as is being nice to them. In addition, religion gives people hope, this is why people have it. False hope is still hope.

 

Cant people love thy neighbor and exercise good morals without joining a religious group?
I should hope that mankind would not need to join such a creed as an excuse to exercise morally just beliefs.

But really, i fail to see how your belief in the small amount of good morall stand points expressed in the bible is reason for you to base a belief in a supreme omnipotent being.

In fact i would hope that a person as smart as you would realise that you dont need to believe or worship him. You can be kind and moralls can be found in other books (wibbly the pig - gogo).

You dont need religion ;/

I believe what i believe because i was bought up to decide for myself what religious or philosofical belief system i wanted.

I looked at the evidence and decided i can be a good kind man and not be bound by the blindfolded stamp of, Christianity, etc.

 

I didn't I believe in God because of the Bible. if somone told me the Bible proves God, I would tell them to get hit by a bus. I said I follow the morals contained within because they seem like good ideas, and Christianity is not just an excuse for me to follow morals. Now is this a moral discussion or do you want to turn it into a religious discussion?

Also you still haven't told my what makes you follow your set of morals. You said you chose not to be bound by the morals of a specific religion, so what do you base your morals on? Specifically where did you find your ddefinition of 'good'

 

Its hard to pinpoint exactly how i gained my current moral stance, but i think for the majority of people and me being no exception, it came from when and how i was raised.

I was taught what could be said to be right, and wrong, in a sense. But with an open mind from my parents.

But there are many other things that have influenced my moral stance. Reading has benefitted me a lot in this sense, and so has life experiances to a somewhat larger degree.

The lessons in the bible of which i found, were rather obvious. I already knew the blatant ideas of what was right and wrong expressed in that book. So i paid the lessons contained within no further glance after acknowledgment.

So, more on the subject of morals. Why follow a religious creed if you can gain moral guidance from other means like i did?

Do you believe in the christian god? And why?

 

The hell is that supposed to mean? Are you saying that Christians are not good people? That they're blind?

You sir, are pitiable.

 

I didnt even suggest that...

However delusional is more the correct word.

I Understand that the word "delusion" is uncomfortable. However, it is the correct word in the English language to use. The dictionary defines "delusion" in the following way:

A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence.

The invalidating evidence is all around us. Chances are that you have known it for many years, but you have been unable to face the reality of the situation.

 

Uh. You more than suggested it, you flat out said it.


So, because I believe and follow a God that advocates the punishment of thieves, of murderers, who consoles you to tell the truth, who tells you to respect your elders, to not have sex with someone else's wife, that makes me delusional?

 

Boom. Right there.

"A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence."

Thats what makes you delusional.


But really, i have already proven how lacking his morals are, slavery, human sacrifice, sexism, all ok to you? Cause i sure as hell wouldnt follow a god who said that kinda thing. Never mind a god who is build on such a terrible... terrible amount of evidence pointing to the fact that he was a creation of the human imagination.

It doesnt matter how many other good things he may advocate, thats like saying a mass murderer is good because he returned some money he found to the correct guy. Its nonsense and i have already argued this point with you.

 

No, it's like saying a slave owner is good because he donates to charity, he offers his services as a lawyer to destitute people for free, who takes in orphans.

I'm sorry, but one immoral thing in the face of infinite moral truths does NOT invalidate God.

 

Bird of Prey, you have shown to me what I already know, that your morals are based on what you believe, not what the Bible says, and that you merely choose to believe the parts of the Bible that support those beliefs and ignore the ones that do not. Given that, why do you bother to read the Bible at all? You oppose homosexuality because its gross or support homosexuality because you think its natural, not because of what the Bible says about it, in the same page in which it lambasts eating leftovers with similar fervor.

Fenix, where are these infinite moral truths? The Bible is a finite document, it is full of disgusting ideals, and pretty much all evidence ever points towards it, and the belief in god associated with it, being an arbitrary creation by man, made because of man's need for purpose, but also used as a tool to foster societal cooperation. Mankind has moved beyond the need for religion to accomplish such things.

As for what I base my morals on, that would require me to have some first. My sole concern is for my own happiness, that my happiness is derived in part from being kind to others and helping them does not make me "moral", it just means my preferred method of finding happiness is more amenable to the overall goals of society.

 

In reply to fenix*

Infinite moral truths?

Could you show me that part? I must have missed it under all his rants about women being inferior.

You will choose to ignore his sexism, slavery and human sacrifice, just pay it no attention, because you think he redeems himself through his other actions?

You cannot ignore it, its such a huge goddamn part of the guys personality! I have no idea how you can even pray to a guy who has said and done such horrible things. Nevermind worship him. Doesnt it eat away at your logic man?! dont you sit there and think:

"Geeze, you know, im not sure if i should support this God fellow.. He has said some pretty terrible things. Things of which he fully expects us to do today too... Perhaps i shouldnt pray to him?"

"But he has done so many other great loving things!"

"Like creating a world knowing who's going to hell and who will join him in heaven so people can suffer for no reason?"

Its so ridiculus.

Im sorry but, i dont understand why you would follow such a deity.

 

10 Commandments
His saving of the Hebrews - OH WAIT he advocates slavery, he COULDN'T have sent a liberator, what am I THINKING!?
His uniting quite a few nations.
Religion is intricately tied with civilization. With the advent of monotheism, mankind leapt forward.
The great arts, paintings, music, literary works associated with him
So on and so forth

@ Wodan -
You're telling me that mankind doesn't need some sort of guide? Things look pretty screwed up to me.

@Bamber -
Show me some 'rants.' Not instances where a man is shown being superior to woman, but an actual rant. Also, and I've asked you this before, show me a true instance of one man ritually sacrificing another to the Christian God.

Also, and I've stressed this quite a few times, the God I follow is NOT the orthodox concept of him. The God I follow DOES NOT send people to hell unless you willingly commit great evils. That's pretty akin to me using Hindu logic on you (lolwat)

 

Um, no, that just means he wanted to free the Hebrews, he didn't have anything against the Hebrews having slaves.

In horrifically violent ways, involving plenty of slavery.

Actually, the rise of Christianity happened with the fall of the Roman Empire, where mankind fell back and didn't get back for over a 1000+ years.

I could make a great painting of Hitler, but that would not make him a better person. Plus, anyways, a good portion of art is inspired by imagination and dream, but it doesn't make the imaginings any realer.

I blame Christianity, religion, and the close minded mode of thought that it encourages as being responsible for much of the screwups. Humanity has advanced in spite of religion, not because of religion, for the last few thousand years, especially the last few centuries.

There is a specific passage, I'll get it to you after class (which is 6:30-9:20, UGH).

Then the God you follow is not the one whose teaching are offered by the Bible.

 

Was in the process of replying, when i saw you had summed up pretty well wodan. ty.

And yeah i read such a passage also, i'll try find it for tomorrow morning.

 

Goddamn. I had lovely response to this, went to correct a typo, hit backspace and boom.

Here's a slimmer version.

"Um, no, that just means he wanted to free the Hebrews, he didn't have anything against the Hebrews having slaves."
The Hebrews were the slaves. If God was such a huge fan of slavery, why'd he send Moses to free them?

"In horrifically violent ways, involving plenty of slavery."
Slavery existed long before Christianity. Nothing changed.

"Actually, the rise of Christianity happened with the fall of the Roman Empire, where mankind fell back and didn't get back for over a 1000+ years."
True, but religion was integral to both Renaissances.

"I could make a great painting of Hitler, but that would not make him a better person. Plus, anyways, a good portion of art is inspired by imagination and dream, but it doesn't make the imaginings any realer."
You could, but why would you? He's an avatar of evil. However, insane amounts of art is based off of Christian icons, such as God, Jesus, the Virgin Mary, so on and so forth. Art does take a good amount of imagination, but quite a few of what are considered great works of art revolve around religious iconography.

"I blame Christianity, religion, and the close minded mode of thought that it encourages as being responsible for much of the screwups. Humanity has advanced in spite of religion, not because of religion, for the last few thousand years, especially the last few centuries."
I sincerely doubt Christianity is the reason for the Grecian riots, for the IRA, for ALL the **** that goes on in Africa, for the Colombian drug lords, for drive-by's in LA, for the government collapsing in Iceland, for drug addiction, for emo music, etc. Quite a few of histories greatest scientists were Christian.

"Show me some 'rants.' Not instances where a man is shown being superior to woman, but an actual rant. Also, and I've asked you this before, show me a true instance of one man ritually sacrificing another to the Christian God."
Alright. I'm rather interested in this, as all I can think of is when God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, though stopped him.

"Then the God you follow is not the one whose teaching are offered by the Bible."
The Bible is one of our holy books. We mostly follow the New Testament and our other books though. And we're pretty much anything but orthodox. Most Christians don't even want to admit we are.

 

duuuuuude,
you forgot ctrl+z (or the forward button if it went back a page)


and i love a good atheist who knows the bible well
(im not saying yar an atheist)