Nullifier rush?

Well, I guess this won't be solved until the unit is made official and we know the cost/requirments (if any). I've never even heard of a twelve zergling rush (probably because it would fail miserably), but if anyone knows, what/when it DID happen, tell us.

 

Shadowdragon apparently you need to go back and take some more reading lessons, because you seem to be repeatedly misreading what is being typed or you intentionally choosing to act like a 1st grader in the way you are ignoring other peoples comments that disprove your own. Reread what Karune and reread what I said, first you will notice the s at the end of Zealots implying he had more than one, and assuming Nullifiers take at least as much effort to get as zealots and Karune had the minimum of 3 Zealot equivalent things So you tell me how many Zerglings would a player that hasn't attacked have at this point in time? I would guess at least 6 but I would lean towards there being more because if in fact there was only 6 then whoever is playing either isn't that quick or was teching because he figured Karune was doing the same. But because I believe it is very likely that Karune had more than what I have stated and given they way he talked about the attack force and the way it would have overwhelmed him and his multiple Zealots I would wager the force of Zerglings attacking was at MINIMUM 12+ most likely it was more (notice the word minimum, it means the smallest possible amount)

Ultimately the number or Zerglings and/or the number of Zealots is irrelevant because while they could give us a good indication how far into the game they (and thus giving us an idea of where the Nullifier is on the tech tree), we don't actually know the number of Zerglings and/or Zealots. However we can at least make 2 assumptions, the first being the Nullifier no matter where it is in the tech it at least going to be on the same level of Zealot with at least the same cost. The second assumption we can make is that since the Nullifier is a caster unit it probably doesn't have a very strong attack or very much Hp/Sp. Finally since we know as of right now units can't be caught inside a FF a Nullifier rush would probably be easier to stop with a small group of Tier 1 units than an equivalent Zealot rush would be.

Hopefully that soothes some people's worriers (I know it helps soothe mine, besides the fact the Beta hasn't even started and the whole point of it is to balance things....) and Shadowdragon I will happily continue this debate if you choose to, but don't just ignore some peoples opinions because of what you may or may not know about their knowledge of the game.

 

I have read your posts, and considered them, but I don't think you are considering mine. The point of a Nullifier rush isn't to fight the enemy and destroy them, where HP and attack strength are a factor, but to stop them. Since the objective is to stop, not kill, the only thing that matters is speed and map size. Everything comes down to how fast the plan can be executed, and how quickly another player can detect and react to the plan, as well as how fast the Nullifier itself is. The point is to strike BEFORE a large mass of enemy units capable of stopping the Nullifier exists. If there is such a large mass of small units so early on that the Nullifier will die before it gets in range of its casting point, then it shouldn't be wasted on an attack since a more likely scenario is a would-be devastating rush by the opposing player. In that case, the Nullifier would be better put to use blocking the path of the enemy, buying some extra time for units to be made in defense.

Yes, a Zealot attack would be stronger; there isn’t any debate on that point. But it’s also much more risky. The loss of one Nullifier (two if wish) means almost nothing in the long run, so long as the Nullifier succeeds at least once, where as a full Zealot rush is a gamble with which the whole game risked. Let me explain; assuming your enemy has about 10 workers, and you trap them, then your enemy is out about 240 minerals because of those 15 seconds of production lost (more if the workers are too dumb to move on their own, which is unlikely, but you never know). If the Nullifier survives and manages, through luck or a well placed field, to do it again, then the enemy would lose 480 minerals. As an added bonus, the workers that are trapped can't build. The player controlling the Nullifier also gets to see what the enemy is doing. The damage would be even worse if the vespene gas could be trapped later on (though unless he's doing a straight tech, this WOULD probably be too well defended for one guy).

On the point of trying to stop one guy, do this. Get on Starcraft, and play a game as the Protoss. Build three Zealots as soon as you can and send one to the enemy base. Tell me how close he gets. When I tried it, he got in a hit on a probe before anyone actually managed to hit him. NOT kill. Hit. I tried again on the Terran, and the Zealot almost lost his shields before the first hit. One last time I tried on the Zerg. That didn't...go so well. He got swarmed on his way to the base. I'll try again later though, maybe I'll have better luck. Still, if a single Zealot could get that far in, I think a Nullifier could get in casting range. While the games are different, the starting units and beginning mechanics probably won't vary too much.

On a personal note: Sorry for the boring essay. And all this is still conjecture until the Nullifier’s actual speed and cost are established.

 

No easays are good they create a much greater disscussion than what was going on previously and that is the whole point of a forum. You do make a good point with how long it could take a Nullifier to die but assuming that has similar stats to a High Templar (which is a reasonable assumption considering what we know so far) it would be douptful for to have more than 50/50 Hp/Sp (which is 10/10 more Hp/Sp than what the HT in SC1 had) while a Zealot (assuming similar stats again) would have around 100/60 making Zealots alot more durable. Also because time is an issue here starting energy becomes a factor but for the sake of disscussion lets assume it has enough for 1 shot of FF and that it starts off with FF already researched. Now assuming the Nulifier still makes it inot the oponent's base and got its shot off whats the most it can do? Karune has already stated that currently units can't get stuck inside it so the only way a worker is getting stuck is if it gets pinned which wouldn't happen to more than 2-3 workers assuming they are properly spaced, also its likely that the workers will have enough space to go around the FF so probably the best tactic would be to FF a couple of mineral patches themselves but given what we know about the size of a FF it probably wouldn't be to encompass more than 2 mineral patches and considering its still early game workers could probably be very easily doubled up on the other mineral patches for very minor losses in mineral production, and fianlly even after the Nullifiier has done it has to escape and with its assumed lower Hp/Sp it probably won't make it back to its owners base alive.

Now alot of the above is making assumptions in favor of helping the rush, my personal guess if the Nullifier will cost gas because in SC1 only 2 Protoss units didn't cost gas and those were the Probe and the Zealot, also I think it will require some early building to be build (like the forge which was suggested earlier) so I doupt you could make enoughof them fast enough to create an effective rush.

So in the end Im still not that concerned and even if it does turn up to be a balance problem it most likely be caught in the Beta so it hopefully won't actually be a problem when the game comes out.

 

A Nullifier rush would be far riskier and less efficient than a zealot rush. While Zealots have high shields and hp as well as damage, a Nullifier is very fragile and most likely has no attack or possibly a very weak one. There's really no point in comparing how close a zealot gets to a worker and how close a Nullifier might get to a worker. That's like comparing a dark templar and a high templar and asking which one is better at casting spells. They were made for completely different roles. The zealot was the main fighter while the Nullifier is a support caster. Trying to get a a Nullifier through an enemy base to the mineral line would be like... trying to get a HT through their entire base and try to cast psi storm on their mineral line. They're both suicide. Even when assuming the Nullifier is built straight from the Gateway and has no other prerequisite, it's still enough time for the other player to build a few units. If a Nullifier were to try to get past them, they'd be slaughtered. Furthermore, supposing it was even possible to get the Nullifier to its destination and cast a force field on the mineral line, it would require more force fields than the nullifier had energy to cast if its size was anything like the HT's. To make it effective it would require multiple Nullifiers which is more inefficient and less likely to succeed as the opponent had longer time to build up his forces. The Nullifier is FRAGILE. If there were even four marines, three zealots, and six zerglings, they'd be able to take out the Nullifier with ease. Not to mention buildings such as phase cannons and sunkens which would prevent Nullifiers from approaching.

 

I say the Nullifier comes around the same time as medics. Its just like a Protoss variation of the Medic but based on passive offense.

 

Its tier 1! And medics are tier 1,5! But a tier one can cost gas, and i think the nullifier will have a cost like 75-25

 

No one said it wasn't a tier 1 unit. But if it requires gas and another building it will come around the same time as Medics.

125 minerals and 75 gas seems about right for this unit, don't forget Protoss are expensive

 

yes but no one said it required another building, and an unit is tier 1,5 if it requires an extra building. And if it has low hp and shield like 20/40 (i think that would be fair), and if the spell only has a low AOE, its cost should only be around those 75-25 IMO.

 

The spell can cover an entire normal sized ramp, I remember seeing a HT cast it on this one screenshot, forget where to find it tho...

edit: I found the image. As you can see this is a larger ramp from the usual ones with less width I think, or maybe this is the standard size ramp width.

Also note that they are channeling the forcefield, which could mean the Nullifiers may be able to keep it up until energy runs out or they die.

[img width=500 height=427]http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/0/05/Forcefield.JPG[/img]

 

"They"? As in the Nullifiers? I don't think so. Those are Templars, and due to balance, the channeling might have changed. And the templars might not even be channeling. That might be the creation animation.

Blizz told us that a Force Field costs 30 energy. That means that they most likely are NOT channelled.

 

Right.

Plus, the fact that Blizzard has said that the Force Field lasts fifteen seconds also seems to indicate that there is no channeling. If there was, than there'd be no reason the Nullifiers couldn't just keep the spell up until they ran out of energy.

 

@GMG ''they'' I mean the Templars in the picture. :}

And yea you guys are probably right I doubt they will channel now, as it might be imba early or even mid game for them to hold it longer than 15 seconds. But channeling or not it would be the same as casting another force field on the 14th second since wither way the force field holds the same amount of time and you loose the same amount of energy, but if it did channel and the cost was (30) +1 mana per second then channeling would allow more/longer force fields but the fact it has to remain stationary balances this out.
But for now it looks like the Nullifier's force field will be a cast then hide.