Religion

Thing is, every lesson you learn from religion, you can learn without it. Don't kill. Fairly obvious why you wouldn't kill another person. Help the poor. They have no money. You'll pity them. Religion doesn't change our emotions. It's not like religious people never get angry or atheists never feel pity. Religion only exists to serve as a crutch, something people could lean on when life's hard, which would explain the widespread belief in gods. The biggest reason religion's so prevalent is because people are way too worried about the future. They're afraid of death, and by extension, the afterlife. They're afraid of the unknown, when (or because) they have no idea what will happen. If people started focusing on the present and enjoying it, we wouldn't be in the mess we are right now. Hell, I doubt we'd even have wars if we focused on the present rather than the future. Unfortunately people wouldn't give up thinking about their future, and religion's one reason for it. It (Christianity for one) keeps telling people stories about hell and death and eternal pain, and that freaks people out on a subconscious level. There's no denying religion helped a lot of people, but it killed even more. Religion's not perfect, but only because humans aren't perfect.

 

Wait, what? Since when is religion responsible for all wars? There were wars that many people fought becase of religious motives, there's no denying it, but no wars if there was no religion? That's too far imo. As far as I know, even crusades were fought because of money. In many wars religion was only used to make people more willing to fight in them. I'd lean toward our competitive nature as main (not only one) reason for wars.

Scratch that, I misread, sorry

 

I never said religion's the cause of all wars. I said we'd have no wars if we stopped worrying about the future so damn much. All I've said religion was one of the causes we worry about the future so much.

 

Is it?
I'd say we have religion because we're worried about the future in the first place. Would we even have religions with all their restrictions if we didn't give a damn about what happens after death? They don't give any immediate benefits so if you don't care about afterlife there's no need for religion

 

That would depend on how you look at it. I see religion as a guide to life, not as a specific way to live the afterlife. Just the fact that so many religions stress the same values and beliefs is evidence that it was meant to be a collection of values and morals. The afterlife thing is another incentive to get people to behave the way they want to. "You be good now, and you'll be rewarded later" kind of thing. They specifically made the notion of the afterlife because of the fear of death, or more appropriately, fear of the unknown, and it was expanded upon by modern religions as a place where you'll be rewarded or punished.

So it basically ends up as asking what came first, the chicken or the egg.

 

If afterlife is "another" incentive, what is the first one? I'm saying that imo religions exist because of our fear for what happens when we die. They ease that fear saying that there is something more than just this life. (same as you) I'm not saying it's way to life the afterlife, but rather the way to live this one to earn happiness later.
My point is that the fear caused rise of religions, not the other way

 

I never said religion caused fear. I said religion built up on fear to attract people. Of course fear came before religion. Fear is an emotion that predates our species. Religion can't cause the rise of fear when fear came before religion.

 

By fear I meant worrying about the future, which as you said is (among other reasons) caused by religion

 

I love how people assume if you're arguing for God you're obviously christian.

You're friend is a little off, buddhism is the most popular, then it's protestant, and then christianity. ^-^

M,, that policy isn;t used today. N church I've been in has mentioned hide nor hair of that.I suppose on a small level it is the truth, because this world is full of suffering and they fo say to live through things, but that topic isn't stressed anywhere near as close as "believe God will help you though" and "Jesus died for our sins" and basic things along those lines.

Yeah, because just because you don't know obviously means i don't understand my own religion, right? I may not understand it all, but i do understand the teachings to a very great extent. If someone practicing a religion doesn't understand it then they are either young and don't get all the concepts or they shouldn't even practice said religion. Religion here isn;t as prominent in places like China where it's a lifestyle. But still, people should know what their basic religion teaches. that nixes out all the people who claim to be "Catholic" and never go to church. those are the people who don't know thier religion. i don;t claim to know everythign about my religion, but i do understand a fair bit.

True, but religion is a more basic way, at least to me. I wouldn;t care hide nor tail about some poor people in nicaragua unless the church said anything. Because some really important stuff are never "newsworthy" in the eyes of the dmocratic infested media. though basic life lessons i agree, but who said religion was just for that?

of course, even if religion didn;t exist there are people who always worry about what is to come, be it in a few days or a few years. and christianity doesn;t aim to scare people into its religion. True, i have an extremist aunt who says every non christian will go to hell, but me and many devour christians and priests and nonreligious people believe that religion does not determine where you go. it's how you act. you said that religion isn't needed to teach people life's lessons like not killing. I think if people live by the basic rules and such, and aren't evil or cruel that they will go to heaven. i don't think a loving god would discriminate just ebcause religion.

Ah, I thought the crusades was mostly about religion, but you coud be right. Humans are always looking for an excuse to fight. Just look at Iraq and Afgahnistan. They said we were wagin "Religious warfare" and that's how they got their people to fight back. we aren't doing that, not even close, but because the dictators and extremists want people to hate us they make lies that will rally their people into action. Religion is just easy to blame, in my opinion, that's why so many people use it as an excuse.

i don't believe that at all. wars are fought over crrent matters. if i wanted somethign my friend had and i want it now, i'm not looking to see how it will help me in a few years, i just want it. i'd kill him for it, and that's the now. people don't always worry about the later. if you look, in wars, they're not looking about the in the future, they only want power and wealth now. as soon as they're dead, most leders don't care, they just want to make the most of what is going on in that current time.

*nods* and i see what you two meaning about religion and fear. i believe people are afraid so they turn to religion, but as Mee said i don't think they go out scaring people. for me, i'm religious for other reasons, too. not jsut because i want to go to someplace after i die. i have a lot of trouble believing in the afterlife, because i simply can't fully comprehend it all, i'll be honest.

 

Ya i was a bit quick to say that he was christian should've read his replies in context.

These are just approximate number but i think you'll find Christianity is the most popular with 1.8 billion (Protestant is normally included with christianity?Could someone confirm this for me), then Islam with 1.5ish but due to the open nature of buddhism it is debated on the numbers (300 million to 1.5 billion). Which also means that Hinduism could infact be larger than buddhism with around 800 million.

I was really talking about your religion in comparison to others (How things are borrowed changed etc) such as the take on who was Jesus through the Jewish and Islamic point of view (The big picture to trully see the legitamacy of it all). I do agree with you on the whole christian and doesn't go to church thing but the interpretations of the bible as you state below this (Don't want to over quote xD) with your Aunt thinking non christians burn in hell and others thinking its your actions which instead choose where you go is a bit fluffy and used to take the "nastiness" out of your set beliefs(Unbaptised still born babies anyone?).

 

wll i'm constantly told not to take the bible literally. because le's face it: the bible doesn;t make sense. It's full of contradictions and alternate meanign messages, so many different religons could and do come from it which is where there are so many christian branches. I, myself don;t understand it all, so don't think i'm trying to bash you here. I don;t know if anyone really does understand the bible 100% and if so i'd love to meet that person and talk to him about it. Because even in the society back then the teachings were unclear, as they still are.

and also, christianity, still, i don;t think is the biggest. because 90% of latin america is cathplic however, you are right. cathplicism is large. and because all the branches of christianity, it is a very wide viariety. *nods* it's good to get different veiws, especially on religion. and yes, most religion stems from the same viewpoints which is why i don;t think god really cares what religion we are. I know few people who are still extremist cathplics, as i for one am not, and it seems to be all the extremist catholics giving ones like me bad rep for beign catholic. I especially hate the priest jokes. But, even if people did believe all non believers went to hell, what makes them different from us? half the people who are "Relihgious" don;t even reflect their religion in anything they do so i don;t think being the "Right religion" is a one way ticket to heaven. I coudl be wrong, but i don;t think it would work that way.

Still, who am i to question the ways of God, whether you do or don't believe him you gotta say arguing on the side of an all powerful being is rather hard when you down know what he's thinking xD
for all i know i coudl be wrong and going to hell xD

 

I think your definiton of christianity doesn't include as many churches as mine but i know nothing of the politics concerning catholics etc. I also don't know enough about the churches stance on the whole "God doesn't care about religion thing" but in my opinion it seems to have perverted the bibles teachings a tad (I'm ignorant forgive me).

But i guess in the end our beliefs shouldn't be set by strict rules of what a few people interperet and we could all be going to hell in the end anyway but theres nothing we can do about it so, be kind and live life to the full =P.

 

I read several people asking: who are we to question God?
Well as far as I know the humans created god. There are 3 possible ways god came to be:

a) He was here before the dawn of time (oh the irony). He created man and all the life - also known as creationism.
b) He was made by humans when they evolved from monkeys and started to ask themselves deeper questions about life. (note: that might mean than god is just a creation of human mind or that hes "real" but only thanks to human mind) - also known as evolution.
c) Humans "discovered" god. Gods and humans were living separate lifes until something happened. (That might contradict the bible but remember that most people believe and believed in other god/gods than the christian one)

Personally I believe its b. I am not sure if god is just pure fantasy or hes real in some sence but its the human who created him.

 

@ KuraiKozo

1. In regards to what i originally said IN my post. HE has control to prevent such actions as natural disasters so ofc they're his fault, they're his fault AND responsibility cause he created the whole damn lot of them, and im sure if you're assuming that he is omnipotent then that only adds to this. For if he is all powerfull im sure its his choice to ALLOW millions of people with little to no life spent on his wonderous earth to perish due to such feeble means as it not raining? And if he chooses to ignore it, (which he has done since.. erhm? since humans have been about? rofl) then WHY would you worship him? HE is responsible for everything on earth, so dont try to talk about free will playing any role in this, because they directly conflict with each other - free will and Gods omnipotence and all knowing powers do not mix.

And thus, he ignores/does not act on the deaths of innocents.

2. Please try to understand this:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

 

to quote a line so i don't completely hate you for your ignorance on this subject, babmer "arguing with people online is like the special olympics. even if you win you're retarded."

 

Indeed Kurai, i have contradicted myself in such a manner. However I disagree with your opinion on my 'ignorance' on the subject tho?

I'll take your post as a sign you're not in the mood to discuss my point.
...*sigh* regardless, live and let live im back to where i was before

 

I am pretty sure that what Babmer is getting at is the problem of evil, and it is a logical argument necessarily precluding at most one of two things:
1. God is not omnipotent
2. God is not omnibenevolent*
*by this I mean working to ensure maximum happiness for everyone in this life.

This is NOT a proof for the nonexistence of God, merely a logical conclusion about his nature.

Then, of course, one can argue that God is not bound by logic, since true omnipotence would allow for breaking the bounds of logic.

Also, Christianity is composed of a number of denominations, among those Catholic and Protestant.

Oh, and here's what Wikipedia has to say on the relative number of followers of various religions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religions#Modern_classifications
The table (as I saw it) had Christianity with 1.9 billion followers, much more than the 1.1 billion followers for Islam.

 

Indeed, and what i have been discussing.

 

@babmer: i tried to argue your point but you didn't like it and prett much brought up the same point
i will say what i believe: God loves us, but he has gien us the earth to take care of. If he helps some of us, everyoen wants to be helped and become greedy. therefore, he has to limit himself. yes, natural disasters are bad. but, dying and living are part of life. dying is sad, but if you look at it, things die.

 

Actually, the problem of evil can be made stronger if it is accepted that everything was created by a god (or gods).

You may not accept these premises, but if you do the conclusion should follow:
1. Only malevolence* or indifference* can create evil
2. a god (or gods) created everything that exists
3. Evil exists
A. From 2 and 3, that god (or gods) created evil
B. From 1 and A, that god (or gods) is either malevolent* or indifferent*.

Again, this argument works only if all the premises are accepted as they are. If you disagree, the conclusion need not follow because one of the premises is, in your view, false.

*These are examples, other ideas of what causes evil can go here and be applied to any creator-god(s)
Edit: In some situations one might state that evil can come from something that isn't a negative quality, but that argument would be difficult--not impossible!--to defend.