Tech Lab

Thanks, Remy. I've always been an avid player of Starcraft. I'd still be playing now if the Asian server weren't so filled to the brim with maphackers (exagg).

I believe that not going for the Reactor at once could be a significant disadvantage, especially on small and medium maps. Going for a Reactor is essentially the same as going for a second Barracks, and it doesn't take up an SCV, saves on minerals for more marines, and makes use of early Vespene production. This is particularly so for when you put up an advanced Rax position in a rush-type siege attack - you can offset the later Rax with a Reactor and simply overwhelm an enemy who techs, even with the tech disadvantage.

In particular, I don't see the transition from tier 1 to tier 2 as being particularly "smooth," depending on where you demarcate where "tier 2" begins. This is because the Reactor allows you to double up production super fast, but only for the "basic" unit of each building. That means Marines and Vikings.

So I could see a fast ramp up of Marines for the initial attack/defense, then move over to Tech Lab for teching up your army and adding Medics, while also boosting your forces with fast production of Vikings at the same time for a powerful late early game mobile push.

I suppose its possible to also tech up before boosting production, but in Starcraft, that's never been as much of a worry-free approach as it was in Warcraft 3, and I don't know that Blizzard means to emphasize tech-ups in a game about massive armies.

I imagine that the mobile firepower afforded by the fast production of a flying Viking force (especially against Organic targets) would be a deadly threat to any enemy Terran, Zerg, or Protoss.

If lots of Siege Tanks will continue to be a mainstay of Terran strategy, then double Factories will still be a requirement, possibly with dual Tech Labs. I see that as awkward compared to the building speed and efficiency of a Rax/Factory switch involving mostly a Viking/Marine/Medic force.

BnechReaker's comment about the timing of the Factory/Reactor interface for the Viking "rush" also seems to favor the Viking-first strategy, and the continued emphasis by the Reactors on "basic" units will make these units a mainstay for all Terrans anyway, even if they're not that powerful, just because you can make so many of them at once; especially as a response unit or as a reinforcement strategy.

 

I consider the advent of the Viking having an air form (and starting as a medium ground unit) is essentially the equivalent of a Mutalisk rush, but with more benefits.

For instance, you're provided with a (relatively) early ground unit while you're researching your air capabilities for the unit. You don't even have to wait for the tech before you can start churning a unit that will eventually fly. You can tech and build at the same time, technically.

Depending on the timing at which it actually occurs, this is going to be a very deadly strategy and put Terran on the map of early rush attacks. But then again, so will the Reaper.

So far the only race I've seen that's really going to "lose" in this early tech race is the Protoss. I don't see any significant building mechanic changes aside from the Warp-In. In my opinion, they're going to have to be a little more defensive than they were until Tier 2 in order to counter these options for the Terran and possibly the Zerg.

Really the only weakness of the Viking is its inability to fire at the opposite of its form. So the ground unit can't hit air, etc... Which gives Zerg (and other races) a micro advantage (THANK GOD). You can simply trade off which unit is attacking the Vikings based on their form. Send the lings in, then send in the Mutas. They can't hit both at once.

As to the Tech lab affecting the production of Terran in Tier 1-Tier 2, I really can't give you a stable opinion as I'm not a Terran player. All I know is from the outside. But what I can tell you is that it's going to make the M&M option MUCH more dangerous than it was in SC1 in that there's a possibility of the build occurring a LOT earlier.

Overall, with the exception of the Protoss, the mechanics changes that we have seen are leaning toward making SC2 much more fast-paced than SC1.

 

I think that sending a bunch of Mutas and Zerglings against VIkings will be suicide, unless you radically overpower the Viking/Muta matchup. Since the air Viking is supposedly dedicated anti-air, it'll murder the Mutas without Ling support, then it comes down with its anti-Organic guns. Dead lings. It'll come down to the final unit balances, though, but off the mark, I'd say that as long as they're controlled well, you can't really "split" a Viking into a unit that's half as useful as its supposed to be, just by bringing a diverse force and hoping that the Viking controller acts stupid.

The mobility of the Viking combined with the Reactor/Tech Lab functions promises a great push possible for the Terran at the early Tier 2, but at this point, I'm wondering whether it might be a useful strategy for the Terran to build two Factories. He'll be needing it for the Tank push anyways, and the extra Factory on the Tech Lab will allow continuous Reactor booster production of Vikings.

Then switch the Reactor to the Rax and double up Tech Labs for Tanks.

The Protoss probably won't have a problem with this, as far as I can tell. They can shift their Phase Cannon positions, so it's unlikely that a Viking attack on their economy will be all that devastating. Moreover, they can warp-in units from a Warp Gate anywhere within a grid. I can see nasty raids using Phase Prisms to carry some troops, then Warp-Ins using Phase Prism grids and Stalker Blink for reinforcements.

 

I actually made a mistake in my unit attack suggestion. I should have said Muta/Hydra.

As it transforms you switch to the unit that it cannot attack and continue to change that up.

And don't forget that the Phase Prism is going to be MUCH later game probably than the Viking air.... It seems to me that aside from movable cannons (though powerful in itself) is only a quick fix to the problem of overall immobility compared to the new mechanics for Terran.

 

Unless it were a pitched battle involving more than just the Vikings, I just don't see it.

First off, you kill the Mutas. As long as your resource and tech is about the same, it ought to be about equivalent, assuming that Vikings aren't especially vulnerable to Hydras. Once you run out of targets, you RUN AWAY and get repaired. Then return and finish off the Hydras. If it's a pitched battle, then it's a toss up. As long as the Vikings have Mutas to kill, then it doesn't matter that they can't shoot at ground targets, since they wouldn't have been doing that anyway even if they could.

The Phase Prism, as far as I can tell, is the basic unit for the Robotics Factory, easily on par with the Shuttle from Starcraft, assuming that the Robotics Factory is on the same tech scheme, except that this Shuttle can make a grid that you can warp units (and Cannons?) into in order to support the first unit deliveries.

 

No. You MICRO the units. So when the Vikings go into air form, you back up your Mutas out of range and let the Hydras move in to shoot. If they decide to go back to ground form, you pull out the hydras and bring the Mutas back in.

Exchanging of roles.

 

Quite a bit of discussion has taken place, so I guess I'll just kind of go through it and state what I think about things that I want to touch on.

I disagree that not going for the reactor ASAP would be a disadvantage, and I also do not think that it's quite the same as a second rax. I think reactor timing would depend on the situation, but I don't think you can really see the true benefit of the new addons at tier 1. Personally, I the reactor and the tech lab will only start having an impact from tier 2 and on. Terran tier 2 is factory btw.

If you go reactor right away on your first rax, at first it may seem like it's the same as having a second rax. But once you start looking into marine upgrades and medic tech, it'll mean lifting off the rax and refitting it with a tech lab. That will mean you either be left with only one rax to pull medics only, or you build a second rax onto the reactor. However, you have to consider the fact that to get a reactor, you'll have to first get a refinery up and harvest gas. So personally, I would go for a second barracks instead of getting reactor on the first rax. There is no reason why you should have to wait for gas production to get a second rax que, and even less reason why you should have the short gap in production to relocate the first barracks.

So realistically, the priority of the reactor at tier 1 is not as great as you believe. Furthermore, I can see situations where Terran can go without a reactor at tier 1 completely due to not wanting a second rax. Such as in cases where they want to tech to factory sooner, in TvP for instance, or if a Terran player does not wish to delay factory too much while investing in parallel tier 1 tech such as merc haven or planetary fortress. Thanks to the new supply depot and reapers, completely blocking off the bases entrance is a viable option, and makes minizing investment in tier 1 less risky than before.

No matter how good the rest of Terran has gotten, I still see a huge different between pre- siege tech Terran and post- siege tech Terran. I don't really see Terran delaying siege tech anymore than they would need to. So having built a tech lab at tier 1 will benefit the Terran in making that transition by taking one step out of the tech picture. As soon as a factory is up, you can start producing tanks while simultaneously researching siege mode, I don't see the transition getting any smoother than that.

Even for folks who want to pump vikes first, the option of starting off the first factory with double queue will still be make a smoother transition than before. But my feeling is that in the last few posts, the viking has been over estimated quite a bit. First of all, the viking will not be better than the muta at what the muta does. The mode switching while offering a tactical option, takes away from the mobility of the assault itself. The mutalisk can continue to harass constantly, but the viking can not do the same. So while mode switching is useful in itself, the overall mobility of the viking unit is deceiving.

Another thing is the viking's actual performance in combat. The final product that is the viking is undoubtedly better than both the viking and the goliath, but it is only roughly as good as both of them combined into a single package. In the BlizzCon Terran vid, they had 15 vikes going up against 9 scattered marines joining the fight at different times, and a missile turret. I don't know about you but my jaw didn't drop. From what we've seen so far, I'm personally not very impressed at what the viking can do vs ground. The air form as well, it's only as good as the wraith. While vike/wraith AA is better than the muta, and Zerg won't necessarily use mutas to face vikings, vike AA is strong vs armored air, which the muta isn't. So masses of mutalisks disintegrating as soon as vikes are on the scene is unlikely. I'm also willing to bet that zerglings that are waiting for the vikings' landing will easily win 100% of the time.

Also, I personally don't believe that vikings will be the fear inducing base raiders from hell that you guys make it out to be. I believe reapers will be better base raiders. Even fast teching to vikes and pumping them with reactors, it is extremely unlikely that you'll be able to pump vikes as fast as a Zerg player does with hydras. The viking only has 125 HP, and it's 2 hydras to 1 viking, I hardly think that it will be easy for the Terran. And at a timing later than reapers, players will be much more ready for such an assault. There will be more ovies and hydras guarding the parameter, as well as defensive structures, not to mention anything else anyone else might end up having in the final release.

As for Protoss, no worries cuz mass carrier = instant win, amirite? But seriously, I think Protoss will hold their own just fine with zealots and stalkers. And subsequent tech falls into place at good timings IMO. I personally regard the stalker to be perhaps the single most widely useful and versatile unit among all SC2 units that we know so far. I think stalkers will spank the pants off of vikes in a straight fight. After Protoss has had enough fun with lots and stalks, phase prisms and warp-in will be available. Then it's either templar tech, colossus, or air. Since we don't know for sure how the predator works yet, it remains to be a wildcard. But just looking at the phoenix vs viking, I think the phoenix will be a direct counter to vikes.

This kind of turned into a big talk over vikings somehow. But my opinion is that while very useful and a great addition to the Terran lineup, it isn't nearly as powerful or dangerous as the impression given by the last few posts. I certainly do not feel that any race is under serious threat just because of the viking.

 

Well no, but my point was that it looks as though the Protoss are a little lacking in variety in Tier 1 and 2 compared to the Terran that we've seen so far.

I was actually thinking earlier that Protoss is going to be pretty much all about the stalker early game...

 

A large bulk of Protoss tech is at tier 2 so it's fine, and warp-in is technically available at tier 1 with the warpgate. But Protoss tier 1 tech was pretty boring in even back in SC1.

Protoss more or less has retained their tech structure, where as Terran got a restructure/overhaul with quite a bit of changes and new additions. I don't see anything wrong with Protoss early-game being about stalkers, that's nothing different from before where Toss had just lots and goons. But this time around, all of the same early-game toys are better than before. Lots can charge, goons can blink, and cannons can move.

Having more tech paths isn't always a blessing either. The engineering bay is the equivalent of forge and evo chamber. But instead of having it path into a static AA tower(AA and AG two-in-one in the case of Protoss) that also provide detection, Terran is now forced to choose between AA tower and detector. If you want both you must make two, but other races will have the two structures functioning as both full-time. The same goes for the choice between surveillance station and planetary fortress. Terran was already arguably the most susceptible to cloak strats, making choices in favor of more defense could put you in a fatal position. Not to say these options are only there to serve as traps that will bite you in the ass, they certainly do provide more flexibility, but there are still risks assossiated with them.

I think the stark contrast we see between the two race's tech trees isn't a mistake, or a random result. I think Blizzard is just keeping the existing emphasis of each race's tech structure but just taking it a step further. Terran had the most complicated tier 1 tech structure, and they're giving you even more options this time. But Protoss tier 1 on the other hand, was more about keeping it simple and effective, so they kept it just as simple while strengthening everything. I also think part of the reason why Terran tech tree got more trim work, is because Blizzard wanted to fix up some of the unnecessarily complicated parts or to make things work better in the game(ghost for instance). Zerg would fall in between just as before, but whether they stay closer to Protoss or get many more options is left to be seen.

 

I certainly hope there's some type of Tier 1 unit that changes up the Zerg ranks a little bit.

The Zergling is a r0x0r scouting unit, but I think Tier 1 could use a change-up, at the very least to give at least a superficial feel of a different interface.

Heck, you could go anywhere from Tier 1 Zerg, as long as you went in one of two directions. Lol. You either went muta ASAP or you went Lurker, pretty much. Lurker always then resulted in a fast tech to Tier 3 for cracklings and defilers. At least for me.

I'm assuming map takeover is still going to be the primary focus of Zerg strategies, but it would be nice to have something that is more of a "base cracker" than the Guardian ever was. Always was hard to storm the front of the base, and let's face it, that's my favorite part.

Screw tricky drops and air attacks. I want my Hydralisk going up your choke. Losses? Who cares.

As for the Terran taking more options versus the Protoss, I see the point of it, but to me this is a huge turnoff for playing as the Protoss. You kind of just sit around and wait to see what the other player is going to do while trying to push yourself to Tier 2 as fast as possible. No interesting mechanics at Tier 1. Once again Terran is probably going to be the pro's choice IMO because of its early options.

 

It might just be wishful thinking on my part, but I don't think we'll need to worry too much about Zerg getting its fair share of changes. I didn't like hearing about the ultralisk making a return, but I'll probably end up even liking that. I just hope the ultra is where they draw the line, we better not see the queen in SC2.

Everyone will end up playing the race that best suits their personal preference. That's why there are Protoss and Zerg users at the pro level, very successful ones at that. Nalra for Protoss and Savior for Zerg are good examples.

I will play Zerg no matter what I think, although there's a small chance that I might try Terran. I personally have never liked Protoss at all, but then again the stalker is a very attractive unit. I need to stop thinking like this... damn, they better release Zerg info soon.

 

I know it's pretty distracting.

But rest assured since you're not jumping for joy over the Terran and Protoss that your Zerg mind is still intact, even after 10 years of this propoganda!!!

If Zerg sucks I am probably also going Terran. I don't think I'll ever want to touch the Protoss more than to figure out how to eat them.

 

Oh of course, there would surely be play time dedicated to Protoss and Terran, so I can spank them better with Zerg. I would be playing all three races in that sense.

 

Does anyone know how much the Tech Lab and the Nuclear Reactor cost?

 

C'mon Joneagle! I found Ych9 without knowing who he is and beat him in a 3 on 3! (with Protoman_x and Meister_x) Thanks Protoman by the way!

And Terran is looking great... I can't wait for the M&M + Tank.
And the reaper harass.

 

i can check, but I'm not sure how much they cost. As for me:

I like the interchangeabiliity. It gives Terran a starting advantage in first to second to third tier. However, it isn't as smooth as you think. Lack of gas in the game is really slowing the terran down. currently, only the marine doesn't cost gas. From blizzcon reviews, the terran are gas dependant and you can use up your gas really quickly, for some reason, faster than in sc1. Tanks are much more expensive and a bit stronger in regular form now, so you can't really mass those anymore. The smooth change allows you to start building vikings and researching upgrades, but it's marred by the fact that there isn't enough gas to "pump" tier two units anymore.

The reactor doesn't seem to be a early add-on. To me, it's what you add to raxes later on once the intial rushes are over to get increased production. And you can add it to starports/factories to mass vikings, banshees, nomads, or battlecruisers.

 

according to starcraft2 armory:

tech lab cost 50/50
reactor cost 75/75

so early reactor with barracks is not really an option if you want to tech up quickly

 

@ JDMFanatic , lol you fool! Meister_X = Joneagle_X