Who you voting for in the 2008 President election?

I prefer to have police officers, however annoying they can be at times, removing the murderers and thief from the general population. Also without government subsidation (from tax money) 10% of us would have an education. Oh happy day.

If you feel the need to vote please feel the need to educate yourself on politics and economics first.

 

What do you have against Al Gore? I'm not American, I'm Australian, but I still know enough about what's going on to realize that Al Gore has a major concern for what is happening at the moment in the world. If Gore is President he would be able to just pour funding into new research for renewable sources of energy and could possibly save us from a major, and I mean MAJOR, environmental problem before it gets critical. If you haven't seen 'An Inconvenient Truth' I suggest you do. It really opens your eyes. I am aware that it is a form of propaganda, but the vast majority of it is true, the rest is just exploited, still true, but exploited.

 

Yes, you are totally incorrect. Most of the terrorists in Iraq are not from Iran or Syria. Iran shares over a thousand miles of border with Iran. Millions of people each year from both countries cross that border. It is in Iran's best interest for there to be peace in Iraq. Yes, it is wrong for them to be there, and lets not remember, the only proof that they are there is 3 missle shells or something. Iran has more of a right to be in Iraq then we do!!
What we should do is simple, we should just get out! We marched right in, lets just march out!

Before the war, some people in the government had predicted the war would be over in a few months or even a few weeks!! Those people were wrong. There were government people who said that Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction. Those people were wrong. Now, after about 5 years of war, 3,500 of our brave soldiers have been killed and billions of dollars spent. These very same people that said the war would be a piece of cake and that the oil would pay for the war, are now saying if we leave, Iraq
will become a bloodbath and a terrorist haven. Some of those same people were around the during the Vietnam war and they told us if we dont defeat Vietnam, than all of Asia will become communists.(The domino Theory) They were of course wrong.
The truth is, we have no idea what is going to happen in Iraq after we leave. For all we know, the Iraqi officals could get motivated after we leave and have a incentive to work together to fix their country. There could be a bloodbath after we leave just like after Vietnam. But were gonna end up leaving anyway!! They already have plans of withdrawing in 2008! If we were gonna win, we would of done it by now. The sooner we leave, the less violence there will be after we leave. We can't even afford this war. Were borrowing money from China everyday just to keep this war going. Were going bankrupt. We've lost 3,500 soldiers and tens of thousands of more wounded. Not to mentions the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis that have died!!
And of course, by being in Iraq, we actually make ourselves less safe! Its true we haven't had a attack since 9/11 but that's because they've been busy attacking our troops in Iraq. And if you look around the world, terrorist attacks have actually increased. And we all know, that hate for america has increased greatly. We are greatly weakened by this war.

We need to end this war. During a debate, Mike Huckabee said we can't leave Iraq or else we lose our honor. We dont need more soldiers being sacrificed so that big ego politicians in washington can keep their damn honor!!!!!

Some of you may think it might be okay to leave some troops there after we leave. Some of democrats want to keep some
troops there until 2013. There is absolutely no reason they need to be there. We need to just get out.

And about the income tax, before 1913 we had no income tax. The budget for 2007 was 2.6 trillion dollars. If we cut the income tax, that total would be 1.8 trillion. Thats more than it was in 2000. The reason its so high is because government is spending huge amounts on foreign wars and a lot of other unnecessary stuff. Read this article for more details: http://governmentdirt.com/ron_paul_...nt_sound_so_irresponsible_after_you_read_this

 

The biggest problem is that Congress is trying to run the war. If they would stay out of this and let the Generals do their job we would have less of this crap goin on because the Generals know what needs to be done

 

Finally, someone with political sense. Congress is terrible for making quick decisions that are desperately needed during wartime. It's the Commander in Chief (President) and the generals' job to run the army and tell the troops what to do.

Congress' only job is to declare war (which hasn't happened for decades) and to fund the troops on the ground. However, congress is abusing their power to fund the war/battles by periodically declaring that they refuse to fund those in the Middle East unless troops are pulled out/relocated to how congress sees fit, which is not their job. The power should be replaced back into the command of the generals on the ground and the government's power in general should be cut back.

 

Actually you are totally incorrect. It is in Iran's best interest for Iraq to become a fundamentalist Islamic state like they are, not for there to just be peace there. You are thinking like a westerner rather than like an easterner. In that region politics and militant action go hand in hand. They will act nice to you one moment so that their troops can rest and then go back on their deals the next. Al Sadr has done this more than once and yet every time he says he wants to work with the government in Iraq, we believe that he is being genuine this time. Entire truckloads of IEDs have been intercepted coming from Iran to Iraq in multiple cases. These are not some things that rarely occur or are having little impact. Also, thousands of insurgents that have been killed are from other countries.

The current situation in Iraq is that the insurgents are destroying the infrastructure and the ability for the Iraqi Police and National Guard to provide security while providing their own security as well as services to the people in their own region. Sepah's idea is to create so much chaos until the Iraqi government has been sufficiently infiltrated by pro-Iranian members. Once this occurs, the groups that do not strictly follow what Sepah wants will be destroyed leaving the Sepah controlled group in power. Iranian Sepah is the biggest and baddest "finisher" in that area and Iran has the most to gain from Iraq becoming a satellite state of Iran. And if you think that this has not happened before, look at Lebanon.

Lebanon is basically controlled by Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a proxy of Iranian Sepah. Sepah trains and supports Hezbollah and Hezbollah in turn does what Sepah wants them to do. Hezbollah got in this position because Lebanon is a weak state much like Iraq is now. There used to be another fundamentalist Islamic group vying for power in Lebanon but it was destroyed by Hezbollah because that group did not think that the fight should be taken to Israel and they should instead just kick Israel out of Southern Lebanon. Because of this small difference, Sepah required that they be destroyed. Therefore, if you look at history, it is not surprising that Iran would do this again in Iraq.


Oh and the war phase that they said would be a piece of cake was actually a piece of cake. It went even better than they planned. Unfortunately, right after the war phase was over, people started looting. No responsible government would just leave after that starts happening. You don't destroy a country's government and then say "well... see ya, good luck with that." And that started another phase which was unexpected and is separate from the war phase.

 

They are trying to avoid what happened in Afghanistan: After helping the Mujaheddin push the Soviets out our forces left as well. They didn't stay to provide any humanitarian aid or help them rebuild their infrastructure. Things turned bad in that country because of it. Do you want that to happen to Iraq? I don't especially with the current leaders of Iran.

 

I agree with that Birdofprey, it's learning from a mistake that had dire consequences. One problem that I think most people have is that they'll discredit anything Bush says just cuz its Bush saying it. Iran IS a genuine threat, maybe not its people directly, but its government is most definitely a threat. It isn't just Bush saying this either, hell, just recently French PM Nicolas Sarkozy told the EU that in the event that Iran doesn't cooperate with the UN on its nuclear program, that the EU is to prepare for possible war with Iran.


It always makes me laugh when you hear politicians say "First thing I'm going to do is get us out of Iraq" when they damn well know they can't get out, even Hillary knows that. Eventually you're going to see that after 3 or 4 years, the public is going to realize they didn't get what they originally asked for, and then we'll go through this cycle again.

 

yeah, your guys politics are so predictable

 

Here's something to lighten the mood. Steven Colbert announced his presidential run on his show last night....maybe we should add him to the poll...haha

 

Steven Colbert. I must have missed that show last night...oh ya, I was watching the history channel then. He'd make a better president than Hilary Clinton ever would. If she wins, goodby America. I mean, come on, she must be one of the dumbest people I've ever seen. I'm not against a female in the White House, but Hilary would be a terrible start.

 

hilary clinton should make everybody a sandwich! yyyuuummm!!! =)

 

LOL, that makes no sense whatsoever, but funny. Mmmm....sandwiches! I'm loving it!

 

You must like the sound of drums because you sure like beating the war drums. You state that it is in Iran's best interest for there to be war in Iraq so that they can take over. Iran has stated numerous times that it wants peace. The Islamic religion preaches peace. Iran is a country of 70 million people and most of those people want nothing more than to be left alone and be peaceful. You sir, have no knowledge of Iran's intentions. They are not the shifty crazed terrorists that you make them out to be. What evidence do you have that "truckloads of IEDS" are entering Iraq? You sir, have no evidence of that. Those are baseless and outrageous claims. Read this article for more info on lies about Iran's weapons: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3037
You have said that the insurgents in Iraq are destroying the infrastructure of Iraq? I supposed you've been there and seen this? They are not sacrificing themselves just to destroy bridges and streets. They are killing our soldiers!! You claim the Sepah's plan is to create chaos in Iraq so that they can take it over. First of all, there is next to nothing in evidence that Sepah is even heavily involved in Iraq. And second, that chaos has been there soon after we invaded.
When you say, thousands of out-of-country insurgents have died in Iraq. You sir, are clinging to failed lies and propaganda. Even American Generals dont say foreign insurgents are in Iraq. A look at the prisons that hold insurgents show that only 6% of them are from other countries. That means 94% are Iraqi born. I guess you just can't stand the thought that Iraqis would actually fight against us. It was our reckless and mistake-ridden approach that has caused so much chaos in Iraq, not foreign fighters. Soon after the initial invasion, we dismissed the Iraqi army. We took away 400,000 jobs from them. Those men were pissed off. In the Iraqi army of course, soldiers take their weapons home after they are finished.
And when you speak of Sepah, I believe you are referring to the Revolutionary Guard. They are a organiziation of 125,000 people. They hardly represent Iran. Are you telling you know their intentions? You really think they want to waste their resources on killing their neighbors.

It is also very hypocritical of you to speak about Iran sneaking weapons in Iraq, when we've been doing it for decades. During the Iran-Iraq war in 1980-1988, we supplied biological and chemical weapons to Iraq to fight against Iran which resulted in a million deaths. We also supplied weapons and our CIA gave satellite photos that were used against Iran.
You say Hezbollah does whatever the Sepah tells it to do? These are backless accusations. These are outright lies.

You know, you keep talking about foreign fighters in Iraq, but who are the most foreign of them all? The American soldiers are! Why the hell are they there again? Our generals dont even talk about why we should be there, they just say if we leave, Iran will fill the vacum or there will be chaos.
These things are really grasping at straws. There is no reason we should be there, plain and simple. Do you really believe were gonna be able to stop the Iraqi insurgents who are trying to drive away the american occupation of their land? There growing everyday. Were only aggravating and causing more chaos. When we first went in and toppled Saddam, many of the leaders around the region in Syria, Iran and etc believed that we were gonna leave after that. They were suprised when we decided to stay. Did we think the Iraqi's couldn't take care of themselves? Its true, they may not have been able to get a stable government right away, but they would be a whole lot better off, if we werent there!! ANd there was no reason to get in the way of their conflicts. Why should our troops be dying in their civil war?
Being in Iraq dont serve our interests and we only help to destablize their country.

Look, the only way were ever going to get a lasting peace is if we withdraw and stop intefering with other countries business. We need to follow the advice of the founders and stay out entangling alliances and civil wars. We can't even secure our own borders and were busy trying to protect Iraqs.

Paragon, are you seriously telling me, that your willing to keep our brave soldiers in Iraq for god knows how many years just to stop Sepah from taking over Iraq for which there is nothing but phony or no evidence for?
Stop acting elitest, Iraqis are capeable of taking care of themselves, and they are not going be taken over by some terrorist group as you seem to claim.
And if you really believe Sepah or Iran really wants to take over Iraq, whats your plan to stop them? Borrow some more money from China? Go to war with Iran and start a regional conflict that could kill tens of thousands of our soldieres?
Stop with your war-mongering and embrace what most americans already have and thats "peace".

To the statements about congress: Congress's job is to declare war and that means they decide if the war is necessary or not. Congress has simply not done its job, Its been heavily weakened and it has done next to nothing to use its power properly.
Look, your right, the generals should control this war, but, its Bush who has been controlling this war, not congress. After the Vietnam war, some generals came together to make strageties about how they should invad countries in order to avoid the mistakes of vietnam. Their ideas and plans were used successfully in conflicts like Bosnia.
Before the Iraq war started, some generals said it would take 700,000 troops to invade Iraq, but Bush dismissed them and replaced them with generals he liked. Bush went along with the 150,000 troops and told america that would be enough. It was bush who didnt listen to his generals, not congress. Bush also made dozens of other mistakes about the Iraq war.
I think his motivation was oil.
When we marched into Baghdad, our troops were told to first secure the Oil ministry. that left the streets unguard and thats why there was mass looting.

 

i think your taking paragon to seriously Jim, hes just making up nonsensical gibberish to get you angry.

 

I just like to say a little bit more. You said "These are backless accusations. These are outright lies" to almost everything everyone has said. What is your evidence if you are demanding it from us?

Yes, I get we went in for the wrong reasons but we ARE there now. You say to just leave. I also agree we should leave, but we should help train the group of people that are going to run the country, not religious groups that will probaby turn on us.

You are wrong though that insergents aren't crossing the borders. That is completly false. I don't know if you have been watching the news but several military bases have been places around the borders of Iraq to keep insergents out. I don't think generals would ask for that unless they had a reason.

Another problem here is the new terrorist stronghold that has placed itself in northwestern border of Pakistan.

My, idea is that we should leave Iraq be mostly and see if anything bad happens with Iran. If the invasion happens go back and confront it big.

PS: thanks for being civilised people

 

The problem with leaving in the current situation is that if we just pull out all at once, the new government would collapse. It would be Vietnam all over again, and the government knows that. The democratic government would be destroyed by the terrorists and the old gov't would be recreated.

 

You have understand one thing: We're the problem.
You are correct that that this war is like Vietnam in that were gonna actually gonna end up leaving. But I can't believe what im hearing. Do you seriously believe we should have stayed in Vietnam for 10 years or more until there was peace? Do you acutally believe that if we had stayed longer in Vietnam, we could of created a democratic government? You sir, need to study history more and think about what your saying.
If we had never gotten into Vietnam, 56,000 americans solders would still be alive and half a million north vietnamese would have their lives.

It is true, that after we left Vietnam, there was a lot of bloodshed, but there would of been a whole lot less violence if we hadn't been there in the first place or if we pulled out sooner just like we should do in Iraq.

You speak of a "Iraqi government". Tell me EonMaster, what government is that? Is it the puppet government that we put in place? Is it that government, that we get in the way of every chance we get?
The Iraqi people are a strong people, and they wont be easily torn apart by terrorists as you describe. If we actually back off and stop telling them what to do, maybe they'd actually have a chance to restore their country their way.
Its this twisted worldview of the Neo-Conservatives that they know what's best for people and people can't take care of themselves. Well, I got news for you, people are perfectably capeable of taking care of themselves and in fact, they do a better job than governments.

Look, its good for Iraqis to have training, but since when is it our responsibility to train everyone? If im not mistaken, we've already trained tens of thousands of Iraqi police and patrol officals, but what has that gotten us? It has changed nothing.

Violence and suicide bombings are still sky high. Military tactics and strategy are all good, but in order to beat a problem, you need to get at the root cause of it. Whats the root cause of all this violence and insurgency? Maybe it has something to do with the invasion and occupation of their country? Maybe the Iraqi people are trying to tell us they want us to leave. MAYBE we should listen!!!
Its possible, brilliant training and strategy will help stop the violence but a look at history and the current situation says different. We've had 150,000 of the best trained troops there for 5 years, but of course, violence has remained high. A look at the Vietnam war shows just how difficult it is to deal with these gulleria and insurgency tactics.
Were not gonna be able to stop them nor should we.

And to Pure Vengeance, your asking me for evidence? Your the one who wants us to stay in Iraq. Your the one who wants 150,000 troops and their families to bear another year of torture in Iraq. Your the one who wants to continue on your failed war in Iraq that was based on lies.
If you are so willing to sacrifice the lives of others, than your the one who better get some evidence. And you better have some more EVIDENCe than some DAMNED LIES and PRopaganda from the BIAS and Corrupt MEDIa!!!!!
Your the one who wants to stay in Iraq based on unconfirmed reports of insurgents entering the country. Your the one who wants to stay in iraq and sacrifice more of our citizens based on these propaganda and lies!
And EVEN if there are insurgents coming in from other countries, why should we be sacricing hundreds more of our soldiers on the slim chance, that these couple thousand foreign fighters will somehow be able to take over a country of 35-40 million people!? Any responsible leader would not bankrupt us and lose more soldiers based on such poor evidence and reports. Enough treasure and blood has been lost, lets come to our sense.

And of course, were forgetting, these foreign fighters are only fighting for the liberation of Iraq, they have to live next to Iraq for all their lives!! They have a stake on whether or not Iraq will be peaceful or not. They have a whole lot more right to be there than we do!!! Thats if there even there!!
If you knew anything about Iraq and you probably dont, you would know they have pride in their national country, and they are willing to defend it. And it is highly unlikely, they will be taken over by outside forces.

Iraq will be better off we leave. There may be violence and chaos after we leave, but the faster we leave, the less there will be. Just look at Vietnam, we lost 56,000 soldiers there, but today, we trade and invest in Vietnam. Were trading partners with them, and the Domino theory was proven wrong. Peace is a powerful message and it works. "We can achieve much more in peace than we ever can in war"- Ron Paul

 

GuiMontag - if you have nothing to contribute to a discussion, don't contribute.

JimRaynor45 - From your link you seem to not trust major news agencies or the government (sometimes) as the article goes against what both say in various places. So, since you clearly don't trust what I say or what the government says unless it agrees with what you say or what the major news sources say, what do I have to show you as proof in order for you to realize that I am telling the truth.

Also, you say the US provided chemical weapons to Iraq. This is true. But guess who else did:
[img width=670 height=283]http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/nyt-041303.gif[/img]
There's also this fun little report. Granted, it is from a major news source...
http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/whoarmediraq.pdf

As for Iran having nothing to do with Hezbollah

Especially:
"Hezbollah has an annual budget of more than a hundred million dollars, which is supplied by the Iranian government directly and by a complex system of finance cells scattered around the world, from Bangkok and Paraguay to Michigan and North Carolina."
and
"According to both American and Israeli intelligence officials, the group maintains floating “day camps” for terrorist training throughout the Bekaa Valley; many of the camps are said to be just outside Baalbek. In some of them, the instructors are supplied by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps and Iran’s Ministry of Intelligence."

And I notice you brought up Bosnia. Did you know troops are still there ensuring the peace? That is what it takes.


Additionally, you are not providing any evidence for what you are saying and yet you require that everyone who speaks against you provide evidence. All you are doing is spouting out lots of words with no backing. And when someone does ask for you to give evidence like PureVengeance did, you just shout at them.
And it's actually quite simple how the insurgents plan on taking over the country.
1) Get the people on their side by showing that the Coalition and Iraqi forces cannot provide security
2) Provide services to the Iraqi people such as security and various other things to further get the people on your side
3) Once the US leaves, stage a military/militia takeover which will be successful since you've got the people on your side
4) Once you are in control, become a fundamentalist Islamic state like Iran or Afghanistan when the Taliban was around

This happened in Afghanistan (replace US with USSR), Iran, and Vietnam (replace fundamentalist Islamic with Communist)

In Afghanistan the people quickly began to hate the Taliban due to strict laws and a severe lack of rights.
In Vietnam many people were purged (killed) and a significant portion of the population attempted to or did escape to the United States or other countries because they really did not like North Vietnam (this included people who fought on the side of North Vietnam and realized that what happened when the war was over was not what they had wanted.

Also, you seem very eager to always point to Vietnam. What about Korea. I'm 100% positive that South Koreans are extremely happy that they have their freedom and that they are not an extension of North Korea.

As for Vietnam: The domino theory is the idea that communism would spread to neighboring countries. Guess what. It spread to Cambodia and Laos (the only two countries that border Vietnam other than China which was obviously already Communist). That means that domino theory was correct in this case.

 

Well Paragon, I have some respect for the media, but I also dont believe everything they say. Im not saying you believe everything they say, but I try to take the media with a grain of salt.

So what if a bunch of other countries also gave Iraq weapons of mass destruction? What does that prove other than they are as bad as us?
Your right about Iran and Hezbollah to some extent. Iran did give money, training and troops to Hezbollah. But what I dont think is correct is to say that Iran controls Hezbollah like a puppet on strings. The Lebanese people have a lot of nationalist sentiments for their country. And For example Ayatollah Fadlallah is very influential in Lebanon and to Hezbollah.

Paragon, you continue to speak of foreign insurgents and fighters who have a master plan to take over Iraq by causing chaos and destruction. Yet, you seem to have to forgotten to tell us where these insurgents are coming from.
In a article that talks about a article written in the Los Angeles Times, it speaks about how Iran isnt the majority of the foreign fighters in Iraq but that in fact Saudi Arabia is. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/jul2007/saud-j17.shtml

Of the 135 foreign fighters in American detention facilities, about half of them are from Saudi Arabia. And other insurgents come from Lebanon, Syria and North Africa. American military officers have said they believe that Saudi Arabia fighters are causing a lot of the attacks. These insurgents come from a variety of different places and they are not organized and have a "agenda" as you seem to claim. It is doubtful they even have the resources to do what you claim they will do.

But lets actually try to find out firsthand what Iraqi insurgents have to say about this situation. In a article that reviews and comments on a recent movie made that talks about and interviews "real Iraqi citizens and insurgents" it shows what really is happening.
I havent actually seen the movie, but the guy who wrote the article has: http://movies.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/movies/19meet.html?ref=movies

In the movie that was created by Steve Connors and Molly Bingham, it interviews real Iraqis who say that their insurgency is actually unorganized and decentralized. That sure doesnt sound like they have plans to make Iraq into a "Fundamalistic Islamic State". The movie speaks about how the insurgency was inevitable and only a natural response to the invasion of their country. If your country was invaded, dont you think that at least some of your people would rise up and fight against it?
There doesnt seem to be any evidence that Iran is gonna be taking over Iraq anytime soon, especially considering, their insurgents dont even make up the majority of them in Iraq. And we have to remember, there's only a couple hundred of them.
So, why did Saudia Arabians come into Iraq and start killing our soldiers? Because the only thing the insurgents are united on is their hate for the "infidels" who have invaded their land. Thats it, if we left, there wouldnt be so much death and destruction.
To sum it up: There killing us and attacking us because were over there and not because were trying to bring freedom or peace. Its because our actions have led to the deaths of their innocent civillians! It because of what were doing is why all this chaos is occurring!! Not some crazed-ass plan to turn Iraq into a fundamental islam state, whatever that means.

Look, Afghanistan is a different situation and any chaos that occurred there was the reaction to the attacks and efforts of the USSR. Its a different situation in Iraq.
What happened in Vietnam, korea and afghanistan is far from being the same situation in Iraq.
The insurgents that are in Iraq are only there to kill our soldiers and to drive us out! What are we even doing there? We've already trained tens of thousands of Iraqi police, and its not our responsibility to help bring"democracy" to iraqi when were not even capeable of doing it. Only the iraqi's themselves can bring democracy to thier country and trying to force it down their throats is a a hopeless endeavor.

Your 100% postive that South Korea is happy? Well for the past 50 years, the South Koreans have been telling us to leave. And in fact, it is our presence that has been hindering peace negotiations. If we didnt have troops there meddling around, N And S korea would probably be united by now.

I think a lot of this ties into whether or not America should be the "Police of the World". Its a philosophical question and your free to believe that America should use its wealth and resources to help bring democracy and peace to other people around the world even if they didnt ask for it.
But we live in a demoracy and majority rules. 70% of americans want to pull out of Iraq. Most americans didnt even want to get involved in World war I or WWII before we got attacked and involved. Throughout our history, our citizens have wanted to stay neutral and peaceful. Just like they do now.
It might be nice if Iraqis can get free elections and if they can live in peace and prosperity. Its true that Iraq never asked for our help or even wanted it, yet we went in there anyway. The same with Korea and Vietnam. But even if we do somehow suceed in Iraq and we wont, is it really worth the cost? What if there is a sudden dictatorship In russia or what if China starts to abuse it citizens more? Should we get involved in those conflicts too? Are we gonna pick and choose who were gonna help and who were not? And considering that most of the time we get invovled, we end up making things worst, like in Vietnam, and Iraq do we really think violence is the answer for bringing democracy to the world? And at the very least you can agree that there should of been a debate about this before these wars were even started. The sad truth is, there was very little debate. The reason was because big Elitiest in washington who believe they knew what was best for everyone decided we needed to go to Iraq.